goofballdeluxe

Quad, my first car was a 1983 Ford Mustang. I can assure you that Mustangs, and all the Ford products, have not "always performed well in reliability". Far from it, in fact.

Since you're a car guy, you should know that all the US car makers started a downward spiral in the early 70s, that they are, just now, trying to remedy. A spiral that was built on conscious decisions to cut corners on quality and workmanship.

During the last third of the 20th century, the US auto industry was also plagued with incompetence in middle and upper management, who built junk as if they had contempt for their consumers. The result were shoddy cars and an entire younger generation who, through experience of ownership, came to the sad fact that US cars were sub-standard compared to their foreign built counterparts.

There is way more to a car than just numbers, but US auto makers still cannot get that. Talk about short sighted and narrow minded.

One cannot erase a well earned reputation for buffoonery with one new model. Ford spent decades making pieces of crap. Its no wonder that most here dislike them. That's what happens when you lie to people over and over for years: Quality is Job #1 my ***.

No one knows how well this new Mustang will hold up. But Ford's recent history suggests that it will be a performance bargain, and be a total piece of **** in every other way.

By the way, I'm not a Ford hater. In fact I own one, back when Ford actually made good cars:

goofballdeluxe

Seeing that it was George W. Bush that bailed out the auto companies, it makes no sense that it would be done to buy votes for the Democrats. Then again, it makes no sense to trade a Porsche for a Ford, either.

Wilder

Actually, I can. I think you'd have to be the kind of guy who makes an impulse buy without doing any kind of homework to pay mid-to-high $20s for a cab, tip with 78k mi and a full respray. I doubt I'm alone here on my sentiments.

$15k is extremely generous for a dealer to purchase this car on trade, especially when he is offering a $3k discount on the new car. To me, the OP's car sounds like it would, as he put it, "bring in" $20k (retail). To pay $15k for a 15 y/o Porsche that is out of season, may require up to $1k or more to "clean up" (tires, oil change, etc.) when they've already discounted the new car $3k, not to mention needing margin to negotiate, they'd be lucky if they make $2k on that car by my calculations.

Please put away your popcorn.

Point taken, sort of. I have driven a Mustang GT. I drove a student's car at autocross and I rode shotgun with him at the track. Bottom line...they are a hot rod. They are big, bloated, overpowered cars good for drag racing and burnouts. A driver's car they are not. The same goes for Camaros and all the other POS American made GTs. Where I will give you credit is in that my comments are based on the 2010 315HP model. I was unaware of the improvements made for 2011. Sorry, I guess I have no interest in keeping up with developments at Ford. Hopefully they revised the suspension, otherwise the car is even more stupid that the 2010 it replaces. As a guy who enjoys driving, I see no purpose in having high horsepower if you can't do anything fun with it. The thrills of pressing the gas pedal and driving fast in a straight line are long gone for me...circa high school. Are they good value? Sure, especially if you're the kind of guy who buys a 415HP car for the sake of telling everyone you drive a 415HP car. If you're a driver, you'd probably prefer to pay a little more and get something that is more nimble and responsive and you may not care if it has 415HP because unless you go to the track twice per month, I can assure you 99% of people don't even know what to do with it.

Now, it sounds as though you have direct experience with 2011 Mustang GTs at the track. So please, enlighten me if my comments are off. If you're just gonna quote magazine articles, please, just save it.

PS - I'm also quite unimpressed by the new M3. Sadly, they've turned it into an overpowered fat pig. Sad that they've lowered their performance standards to the extent that they can be matched by a Mustang. The E46 is the last of the good M cars IMO.

dcdude

The word that we've describing but not saying is snobbery. I'm guilty of it from time to time, but it's unbecoming to anyone.

In addition to my classic '65, I've had two modern Mustangs, both 5 speed: '95 GT was perfect: comfortable, 100% reliable and even gave 25 MPG on the freeway. Loved that car, but as a 25 year old, I hated paying $2,000 per year to insure it. Wife's '99 3.8 was 190 HP and gave 30 MPG freeway. Only issue there was a minor paint failure that was covered under warranty.

As far as Corvette goes, did anyone else read the piece in Excellence where the Z06 (or ZR1?) outlapped the GT2 around Infineon? Whoda guessed that from a "straight line" car? I know it's "not about numbers," but how about some respect at least?

It's too bad that Detroit's high-end V8s don't sell well in RWD sedans (save CTS, I guess). I thought that the Pontiac G8 was an appealing package, now it's gone. Edmunds actually picked the Ford (gasp!) Fusion as one of its Best Buy sedans for 2010.

"Proud," Really?!? Even though you live in Seattle, you still rise and fall with the entire U.S. economy. Not everyone works at Boeing and Microsoft. We need to figure out how to manufacture things again in this country. Manufacturing jobs are the key to a healthy middle class. Right now we don't have one, which is a burden for all of us. When it comes to daily driver cars, I always check the domestics first. There's usually something "better," but as an American (I assume) you have to at least give them a chance.

Wilder

I would suggest that you might be confusing snobbery with discernment. Big difference.

We're not talking about Corvettes here. Nor are we talking about GT2s. We're talking about Mustang GTs and 993s. The ZR1 is no doubt an extremely capable machine. So is the SRT. They not only have the power, they can put it down. Would I ever buy one? No. Just not my thing. But I do appreciate them for what they are. Do I appreciate a budget car with ancient suspension (unless otherwise revised for 2011) technology that BOASTS 415HP!!!!? No. I think its good value if you need a ***** extension.

IXLR8

Bang for the buck, no question about it and for those not willing or able to spend the coin, it is one of a few good choices.

But I've always disliked the cheapness of domestic cars, especially the fit, finish and interiors. They are far better now and it took some competition for them to wake up.

And in the end, for the few of us that have always wanted a 911 since the days we stood waist high with a crooked index finger pointing at one as it drove by, they are more than just a car. And in their (993) day, they were hard to beat, performance-wise.

IXLR8

But at what hourly wage do you think they'll work for manufacturing in the US to be competitive?

Then there is the quality control aspect. The US told William Deming to take a hike, so he went to Japan and the rest is history.

Bouzoukikid

You misjudge me. I’m very choosy in any purchases I make. Swapping my car for a Ford will not happen.

Out of season?. We’re not talking about apples and strawberries here. The season will only have a small effect on a car’s value.
15k US dollars= bellow 10k GBP sterling, extremely low in my opinion.

And what’s your problem with cab tip’s.

goofballdeluxe

Tips are great for big cruisers and SUVs. Not so desirable for a sports car. Definitely lowers the price point in the mind of most perspective buyers of 993s.

Quadcammer

Ok, so you owned a 27 year old mustang (i'm assuming, since you didn't specify, that you had the 4 banger). You say it was unreliable. How many early 1980s cars would you say WERE reliable? Ever since the SN95 bodystyle, mustangs have done well in reliability. For reference, thats been 16 years.

Am I defending all american cars going all the way back to 1970? Hell no. Am I saying that mustangs are typically solid cars that take plenty of abuse? Absolutely.

20th century? Guy, that was 10+ years ago. Perhaps you need to revisit the situation. Ford and General Motors are producing quality products. If you are judging them based on the cars they produced from 1970 and 1980, you might be surprised.

The mustang is probably one of the few american cars that IS more than the numbers. The noise, the feel, the look, etc. They are special cars, especially the more exclusive models like the cobra. Whether this is meaningful to you probably depends most on what you desired as a kid. Rest assured, many young men and women saw 1960s mustangs and said "that is amazing", just like some of us looked at a longhood and went "wow".

Just so we're clear, porsche doesn't produce faultless cars either. Just about every generation of 911 has had some fairly significant defects, from head studs, to tensioners, to valve guides, to IMS failures, etc etc.

Also, "recent history" doesn't mean 1970 and 1980. The mustang has been a solid car since 1994. There was absolutely nothing falling apart on my 10 year old mustang, and I was hardly gentle with it.

Quadcammer

finally a post of yours I agree with

Bouzoukikid

Depends if you have to put up with London congestion.

ClintonM3

Sorry to chime in again, but a convertible is definitely, without questions, OUT OF SEASON now. Ask ANYONE in the business, who goes to auctions, buy and and sells cars for a living, auctioneers, wholesalers, dealer principles, people who actually fork up moeny, not just talkers, ANYONE would tell you that industry wide, convertibles do sell in winter. Even manufacturers agree, take a look at the trend for conventible incentives, it peaks now, because it is hard to move one.

Wilder

I never judged you nor did I think you'd trade your 993 for a Mustang. When I said "you'd have to be the kind of guy..." I didn't mean you specifically.

I'm not sure where you live. Like the OP, I live in the Northwest. It rains a lot here. A sports car is out of season in this market. More so if it's a cab. Much harder to sell and they do loose value during the winter months. That's why it's best to buy cars like these in the winter and if you're selling, do so in the spring/summer.

This is not a personal thing. I don't have a problem with tips. The overwhelming majority of 993 buyers prefer manual so tips sell at a discount to manuals. No offense to those who own cab tips but they are, from a market perspective, the least desired 993 in my observation.

goofballdeluxe

Well, I put up with Los Angeles congestion, and I have a manual.

If I only had one car and needed a traffic congestion urban fighter, I'd probably not have a 993. Tips are fine, but you know they have a wee bit of a stigma in a 993.