Anyone else thinking about a GT3?
12-27-2009, 10:19 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
I think the 996 GT3 is more than a couple of ticks faster than a stock 993. PCA has the 996 GT3 classified as an I car with 381hp and 3192lbs, meaning that the power-to-weight ratio is 8.52lb/hp. A G stock '95 993 has 270hp, 3170lbs and a power-to-weight ratio of 11.74lb/hp. Assuming that the Yellow Zonker has 300hp and weighs 2700lbs, that's a PWR of 9lb/hp. A 996 GT3 "not being on the same planet" only means that the other drivers are not as fast as you. Similarly, if your 993 C4S is fairly stock, then the only reason you're running with 6 GT3's is because the other drivers are slow, not that the C4S is better.
Of course, Kim erased all of his posts, so there is no longer any archival information.
Of course, Kim erased all of his posts, so there is no longer any archival information.
Of course it's all about driver. I'm good, not extraordinary. But someone asked about lap times, and I've got the data to throw some numbers up. And who else has, so far? Beyond my personal "feats", and what I've observed, go find all the NASA weekends on MyLaps to see where everything shakes out. Tom W in his absolutely beautiful GT Light 964 (2200 lbs, 15" wide Goodyear slicks) runs about 1:53 there. Masuo Robinson has pretty much everyone covered in a t-bar chassis 1900 lb car with a 3.4L running in GT3 (class), and he's down around 1:51. So no way in hell even Jesus shows up with a stock shock'd, full weight 996 anything and is going much better than 2:00.
I'll go back to Johannes and the Excellence articles. Quite the discussion here locally over the weekend on our PDC mailing list about the 997 GT2 v. ZR1 @ Sears article. Kenny Gorman (who you can find here) ran the data for this "test". Johannes barely breaks 1:50 in the GT2. With Pilot Sport Cups. Comparison: one of the guys I ran with a few years ago, Hartley Smith, busted 1:50 in a STOCK CLASS '88 930. That's a torsion bar pig of a car with a 4-speed that's geared for absolute uselessness. F______ amazing. Even Galen Bieker (Werks II, now running Bob Rodriguez' second car in the GT3 IMSA series) was barely that quick in Bob's cost-no-object then-C class RSA. I was back about 1:52-3 running Pilot Sport Cups on RSA #1.
In closing, the yellow car showed 315HP on Steve W's dyno. It still weighs nearly 3000 lbs. I get about 130 terminal into T1 at Thunderhill; Mooty was 140+. Bottom line was that he could go from one car length behind me to 3 car lengths ahead on acceleration.
12-27-2009, 11:17 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Mooty and I have run complementary ~2:01's at Thunderhill on the full track with equal RA1's. Him in his 997 GT3RS, me in the yellow car. No stockish 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet when running the yellow car. Not to say it's not possible, just that I've not encountered anyone. Anyone from around here who has gone sub 2:00 with one, please let me know because I do think it's a very attainable goal. (Or ~1:45 at Sears, or ~1:38 at Laguna. Chris Cervelli ran sub 1:40 at Laguna several years ago with a then-C class 993.)
If we're going to wander all over the map, RSA #1, the stock class club racer was good for ~2:03 on Hoosiers, ~2:05 on Kumho's. The C4S on burned out old Hoosiers and PSS9 (but nothing else except track pads) comes in about 2:07. RSA #2 on toasted RA1's still managed a ~2:09 on that track day a couple of weeks ago where we started out the morning with a nearly flooded track.
Bottom line is that yeah a decent 996 GT3 is a couple of ticks quicker at nearly every track. But unless you're running data, or are competing, all you're getting is a bit more grunt on acceleration.
Also, note Van Overbeck's Excellence articles both at Thunderhill and the new issue at Sears to bring the 997 variants into the discussion.
If we're going to wander all over the map, RSA #1, the stock class club racer was good for ~2:03 on Hoosiers, ~2:05 on Kumho's. The C4S on burned out old Hoosiers and PSS9 (but nothing else except track pads) comes in about 2:07. RSA #2 on toasted RA1's still managed a ~2:09 on that track day a couple of weeks ago where we started out the morning with a nearly flooded track.
Bottom line is that yeah a decent 996 GT3 is a couple of ticks quicker at nearly every track. But unless you're running data, or are competing, all you're getting is a bit more grunt on acceleration.
Also, note Van Overbeck's Excellence articles both at Thunderhill and the new issue at Sears to bring the 997 variants into the discussion.
Right. The yellow car is about as developed as it gets (thanks again to Kim or paying and Steve for doing!). But it still comes down to driving. And I find that even when running around with the C4S or RSA #2 that I'm quicker than nearly every GT3 that shows up at a track day (996 or 997 variety). I know I'm not alone......... Further, that's just the ones who are running in the open or advanced group. Why? Most owners could just as well be in a decent Miata for the amount they're pushing the car. Check that, the average warmed-over Miata CAN "outhandle" nearly any 911. So absent the thrill of acceleration, I always come back to "what's the point"?
Make no mistake that I'm NOT criticizing an owner for not running a VERY fast car beyond his/her capabilities. Recipe for disaster there. More that we have many, many, many more cars showing up which are past their owner's limits than drivers that are past their car's limits. Right?
Make no mistake that I'm NOT criticizing an owner for not running a VERY fast car beyond his/her capabilities. Recipe for disaster there. More that we have many, many, many more cars showing up which are past their owner's limits than drivers that are past their car's limits. Right?
What part of my post was written in invisible? I explicitly said a lightly prepped 996 GT3 would go sub-2:00 at Thunderhill on the full track. We just haven't seen that owner. Yet. A regeared one that's been screwed around with has gone 1:58ish. On Hoosiers.
Of course it's all about driver. I'm good, not extraordinary. But someone asked about lap times, and I've got the data to throw some numbers up. And who else has, so far? Beyond my personal "feats", and what I've observed, go find all the NASA weekends on MyLaps to see where everything shakes out. Tom W in his absolutely beautiful GT Light 964 (2200 lbs, 15" wide Goodyear slicks) runs about 1:53 there. Masuo Robinson has pretty much everyone covered in a t-bar chassis 1900 lb car with a 3.4L running in GT3 (class), and he's down around 1:51. So no way in hell even Jesus shows up with a stock shock'd, full weight 996 anything and is going much better than 2:00.
I'll go back to Johannes and the Excellence articles. Quite the discussion here locally over the weekend on our PDC mailing list about the 997 GT2 v. ZR1 @ Sears article. Kenny Gorman (who you can find here) ran the data for this "test". Johannes barely breaks 1:50 in the GT2. With Pilot Sport Cups. Comparison: one of the guys I ran with a few years ago, Hartley Smith, busted 1:50 in a STOCK CLASS '88 930. That's a torsion bar pig of a car with a 4-speed that's geared for absolute uselessness. F______ amazing. Even Galen Bieker (Werks II, now running Bob Rodriguez' second car in the GT3 IMSA series) was barely that quick in Bob's cost-no-object then-C class RSA. I was back about 1:52-3 running Pilot Sport Cups on RSA #1.
In closing, the yellow car showed 315HP on Steve W's dyno. It still weighs nearly 3000 lbs. I get about 130 terminal into T1 at Thunderhill; Mooty was 140+. Bottom line was that he could go from one car length behind me to 3 car lengths ahead on acceleration.
Of course it's all about driver. I'm good, not extraordinary. But someone asked about lap times, and I've got the data to throw some numbers up. And who else has, so far? Beyond my personal "feats", and what I've observed, go find all the NASA weekends on MyLaps to see where everything shakes out. Tom W in his absolutely beautiful GT Light 964 (2200 lbs, 15" wide Goodyear slicks) runs about 1:53 there. Masuo Robinson has pretty much everyone covered in a t-bar chassis 1900 lb car with a 3.4L running in GT3 (class), and he's down around 1:51. So no way in hell even Jesus shows up with a stock shock'd, full weight 996 anything and is going much better than 2:00.
I'll go back to Johannes and the Excellence articles. Quite the discussion here locally over the weekend on our PDC mailing list about the 997 GT2 v. ZR1 @ Sears article. Kenny Gorman (who you can find here) ran the data for this "test". Johannes barely breaks 1:50 in the GT2. With Pilot Sport Cups. Comparison: one of the guys I ran with a few years ago, Hartley Smith, busted 1:50 in a STOCK CLASS '88 930. That's a torsion bar pig of a car with a 4-speed that's geared for absolute uselessness. F______ amazing. Even Galen Bieker (Werks II, now running Bob Rodriguez' second car in the GT3 IMSA series) was barely that quick in Bob's cost-no-object then-C class RSA. I was back about 1:52-3 running Pilot Sport Cups on RSA #1.
In closing, the yellow car showed 315HP on Steve W's dyno. It still weighs nearly 3000 lbs. I get about 130 terminal into T1 at Thunderhill; Mooty was 140+. Bottom line was that he could go from one car length behind me to 3 car lengths ahead on acceleration.
When you say that a stock 6 GT3 (8.52lb/hp) runs a few ticks faster with a bit more grunt than a stock 993 (11.74lb/hp), it implies that that they're fairly close. I just don't think that a five second or more delta (my "data") is merely a few ticks faster. And when you say that no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as the Yellow Zonker, help me understand how this is relevant from a pure performance perspective especially considering that there is only a 0.5lb/hp difference between the two cars. My point is that if no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as YZ, you have two disparate driver levels and are simply not comparing apples to apples. If you're looking for data, wouldn't you want to make everything as even and as objective as possible?
I'm only clarifying, so please don't take what I wrote as as personal attack. Hell, I said that you were a superior driver, so you should take it as a compliment.
Peace,
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 12-27-2009 at 11:34 PM.
12-27-2009, 11:41 PM
#33
Drifting
If you do track events.. Then once you drive a 6GT3, you'll want one. I'd much rather prefer a 7GT3 for looks hands down... But you can get a really nice (and set-up) 6GT3 for $55K.. 7GT3 for $85K
Plus when you put an RS Wing on it and a few other goodies then they are MUCH better looking.. Kind-of like putting lipstick on a pig. It will be my next car.
Plus when you put an RS Wing on it and a few other goodies then they are MUCH better looking.. Kind-of like putting lipstick on a pig. It will be my next car.
12-28-2009, 01:09 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Sorry, Ken. Your previous posts are a bit, um, confusing. You're comparing a 997 GT3 (3181lbs / 415hp = 7.67lb/hp) with a heavily breathed-upon 993 (300lbs / 315hp = 9.52lb/hp) just clouds the issue, as do the references to Tom W's car, etc. Why not talk about the times that a Carrera GT would turn? 996 GT-1? I guess for me, talking about 930 turbo this and GT2 that really gets further and further away from Cactus' original question of "Anyone compare lap times between a stock 996 3 and a NA 993 with suspension?"
When you say that a stock 6 GT3 (8.52lb/hp) runs a few ticks faster with a bit more grunt than a stock 993 (11.74lb/hp), it implies that that they're fairly close. I just don't think that a five second or more delta (my "data") is merely a few ticks faster. And when you say that no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as the Yellow Zonker, help me understand how this is relevant from a pure performance perspective especially considering that there is only a 0.5lb/hp difference between the two cars. My point is that if no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as YZ, you have two disparate driver levels and are simply not comparing apples to apples. If you're looking for data, wouldn't you want to make everything as even and as objective as possible?
I'm only clarifying, so please don't take what I wrote as as personal attack. Hell, I said that you were a superior driver, so you should take it as a compliment.
Peace,
When you say that a stock 6 GT3 (8.52lb/hp) runs a few ticks faster with a bit more grunt than a stock 993 (11.74lb/hp), it implies that that they're fairly close. I just don't think that a five second or more delta (my "data") is merely a few ticks faster. And when you say that no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as the Yellow Zonker, help me understand how this is relevant from a pure performance perspective especially considering that there is only a 0.5lb/hp difference between the two cars. My point is that if no 996 GT3 has ever been on the same planet as YZ, you have two disparate driver levels and are simply not comparing apples to apples. If you're looking for data, wouldn't you want to make everything as even and as objective as possible?
I'm only clarifying, so please don't take what I wrote as as personal attack. Hell, I said that you were a superior driver, so you should take it as a compliment.
Peace,
Now, given that equation, I'm pretty sure I can extrapolate where a 996 GT3 of similar prep shakes out. For good measure, I threw up a known 996 GT3 running Hoosiers and has been regeared (and probably has replacement shocks, but I can't say for sure; that lap time came from Tony Colicchio, who firmly believes a FACTORY STOCK, realigned 996 GT3 can easily run sub-2:00, full track.
(The Cervelli data point was for a stock class club racer of known reputation at a known track; as with any of you guys elsewhere, you can probably, instantly work the numbers on lap times in your local circle. Here it's Thunderhill, full and bypass, Laguna, and Sears. Buttonwillow's a little trickier as the pavement sucks and there are typically four configurations you might be addressing.)
My only reason for adding in the various purpose-built race cars, or the old 930 stock class club racer was to buttress my belief that, if Tony's sub-2:00 is attainable, you're damn close to race car territory.
THEN the discussion, in my belief, has to entertain the possibility of what kind of driver can attain that level of performance. I find that once you top out past a certain level, fear of car takes over. Hence, my comment that I'm not seeing these GT3's, GT2's, etc. blasting around the track. However, when I run into these guys, they seem to be very pragmatic and realistic in approaching the learning curve. How far do they progress? Most of them end up getting a different, more track worthy car! Right? So we never really see a conclusion.
So ultimately what I'll say again, is that you may get a little more kick in the seat on acceleration with a GT3 (again, I have to rely on my personal experience, and that is with the 997 GT3RS--4 car lengths down the front straight at Thunderhill), but for most guys everywhere else it kinda ends up being the same experience.
That's about all I can go on explanation. We'll leave it to the reader to distill my babbling and end up with whatever conclusion he draws. I'm happy to discuss my thoughts further if anyone wants to email me directly. (Or, as always, if you catch me at the track you can take one of the cars out and see for yourself.)
12-28-2009, 04:10 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Well,
I had a very ( motons, evo uprights, re-geared tranny, oil cooler, LWFW, big reds, etc) well prepared 993, and now have a 6GT3 in progress. I loved the 993, and it is hands down a better looking car. The GT3 is much harder to drive, but much faster without much comparison. Having said that, I'm not sure it is that much more fun to drive. I had an '87 911 before that, and had similar feelings about the 993 being much faster, but not so different as far as enjoyment. If you want to be faster than the guy next to you at a DE, then the GT3 will get you there more consistently. If you want to drive at 10/10 and survive, then the 993 is the way to go. Something else to consider is the cost of parts. GT3s are from a different planet...but...it is a HOT planet!
I had a very ( motons, evo uprights, re-geared tranny, oil cooler, LWFW, big reds, etc) well prepared 993, and now have a 6GT3 in progress. I loved the 993, and it is hands down a better looking car. The GT3 is much harder to drive, but much faster without much comparison. Having said that, I'm not sure it is that much more fun to drive. I had an '87 911 before that, and had similar feelings about the 993 being much faster, but not so different as far as enjoyment. If you want to be faster than the guy next to you at a DE, then the GT3 will get you there more consistently. If you want to drive at 10/10 and survive, then the 993 is the way to go. Something else to consider is the cost of parts. GT3s are from a different planet...but...it is a HOT planet!
12-28-2009, 07:31 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
The GT3 is far superior if you're going to be doing frequent track work. It's really tough to compare any data on a GT3 vs a 993 because you'll have one guy with a GT3 say he blows by 993's all day long and a 993 guy will tell you he can keep up with GT3's. As we all know the driver makes all the difference in the world of DE's.
I think the major thing to consider when comparing a GT3 to other Porsches is how much tracking you really want to do. IMO the GT3 is pointless to buy unless you do lots of track days. A regular C2 more fun on the street and you can still have a good time at the track.
I think the major thing to consider when comparing a GT3 to other Porsches is how much tracking you really want to do. IMO the GT3 is pointless to buy unless you do lots of track days. A regular C2 more fun on the street and you can still have a good time at the track.
12-28-2009, 09:27 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Dave aka 171mph in his 6 gt3 on motons on nittos does 1:59 over the top. I havent seen one 997 GT3 come close in laptimes to Dave which u gotta say it's all driver. Dave will probably faster in the 997 GT3. MikeMike
12-29-2009, 01:04 PM
#39
Drifting
All this 993 vs. GT3 talk has led me to realize that there is a 2004 GT3 on my local dealer's lot. Price is slightly high, but I put in a request through their website to take it for a test drive tomorrow as I'll be over there picking up a few things. I always thought that a 6GT3 would be my next step, but I'm not ready to part with the 993 and can't afford them both.
12-29-2009, 04:25 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I hope you will post your impressions after the test drive. Since I also have an E46 M3, I'd be interested in your impressions.
I'm thinking of the 6GT3 primarily as a spirited street car, with occasional track time, as I have a dedicated track car. Do many others use the GT3 as a street toy? My 993 was a track toy, but now all street, even though I kept all the track mods. I love it on the street, and think I'd enjoy the GT3 that way also.
I'm thinking of the 6GT3 primarily as a spirited street car, with occasional track time, as I have a dedicated track car. Do many others use the GT3 as a street toy? My 993 was a track toy, but now all street, even though I kept all the track mods. I love it on the street, and think I'd enjoy the GT3 that way also.
12-29-2009, 05:37 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
I hope you will post your impressions after the test drive. Since I also have an E46 M3, I'd be interested in your impressions.
I'm thinking of the 6GT3 primarily as a spirited street car, with occasional track time, as I have a dedicated track car. Do many others use the GT3 as a street toy? My 993 was a track toy, but now all street, even though I kept all the track mods. I love it on the street, and think I'd enjoy the GT3 that way also.
I'm thinking of the 6GT3 primarily as a spirited street car, with occasional track time, as I have a dedicated track car. Do many others use the GT3 as a street toy? My 993 was a track toy, but now all street, even though I kept all the track mods. I love it on the street, and think I'd enjoy the GT3 that way also.
12-29-2009, 06:38 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
The GT3 is far superior if you're going to be doing frequent track work. It's really tough to compare any data on a GT3 vs a 993 because you'll have one guy with a GT3 say he blows by 993's all day long and a 993 guy will tell you he can keep up with GT3's. As we all know the driver makes all the difference in the world of DE's.
I think the major thing to consider when comparing a GT3 to other Porsches is how much tracking you really want to do. IMO the GT3 is pointless to buy unless you do lots of track days. A regular C2 more fun on the street and you can still have a good time at the track.
I think the major thing to consider when comparing a GT3 to other Porsches is how much tracking you really want to do. IMO the GT3 is pointless to buy unless you do lots of track days. A regular C2 more fun on the street and you can still have a good time at the track.
12-29-2009, 06:41 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Motons. Tony thinks that's possible with the stock shocks. With him driving, yeah I can see it. I'd probably be a couple seconds off; how it's usually worked when we've driven the same car. Except, oddly, the Radical. I would have brought it up last night, but we kind of got into an argument a couple of weeks ago over where everything fits in the pecking order.......
12-29-2009, 11:13 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
With Rob's old car (2600 lbs, @330hp, suspension, slicks) I'm routinely bumping warmed over 6-3s and 7-3s out of the way, but Ken's comments about driver skills and capacity/willingness to risk is IMHO bang-on.
The one guy that can hang with the blue car drives well - and drives a well prepped 6-3 with cup suspension bits and Hoosiers.
Since the fastest way around the track boils down to line perception, input/touch/feel/blending, grip, and avoidance of the middle pedal, I'm not sure that extra grunt makes much difference for most drivers.
Having said all that, I think about a 6-3 often.
The one guy that can hang with the blue car drives well - and drives a well prepped 6-3 with cup suspension bits and Hoosiers.
Since the fastest way around the track boils down to line perception, input/touch/feel/blending, grip, and avoidance of the middle pedal, I'm not sure that extra grunt makes much difference for most drivers.
Having said all that, I think about a 6-3 often
.
Last edited by jdistefa; 12-30-2009 at 11:48 AM.
12-30-2009, 03:08 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
The GT3 can of course be used on the street but I think there are better cars for weekend use / occasional track days. The GT3 isn't the friendliest car on the street and you definitely make compromises over a normal 911. If I had a dedicated track car like you do, I would lean more towards a 997 C2S or something similar. Still plenty of fun on the track but you don't have to worry about going through 5 chin spoilers a year, constant tramlining, harsh ride, women complaining about why your seats are so uncomfortable, and all the other joys of GT3 ownership.
I've always pretty severely modded my Porsches, so maybe the GT3 will be just right?