patela

Hi all,

So I've come within a hair's breadth of finally buying my first 993, and now I have a dillemma and I'm looking for your advice.

The story:

I've won a bid on a '95 c4 on ebay. Of note, the car has 58K mi, and was advertised as "perfect" having a recent clutch and total engine rebuild at Memphis Motor Werks. (Why is muddy at best, but it sounded like owner error). The car also recently got new leathers, new tires, and a new stereo. Due to timing of the auction, I was unable to get a PPI before bidding, but did speak to the owner and get some information from MMW (Thanks Chuck S.!).

After winning the bid, I told the owner that prior to paying any money, I wanted a PPI at Pat Williams Racing to assess any issues and verify that the car was as advertised. The seller happily agreed and even went by the shop to arrange for the PPI himself.

Pat looked at the car this afternoon and called back with the following: (1) The front has had a decent, but not top quality re--spray. Probably for rock chips. No evidence of body work and the paint matches quite well. (2) The 2nd gear synchro is shot. Pat says it's livable, but it would drive someone nuts, no question. He strongly recommends replacement (3) driver's bolster is already scuffed. (4) Torque tube was so quiet he didn't hear it. (5) Engine is bone dry.

The Issue: Pat says that the synchro job is $3-4K at his shop. I think that is assuming the dog teeth are good. Could be more if condition is worse than it seems, but at very least, it involves removing the engine because it's a c4. (Again, don't ask why it wasn't done with the rebuild. No idea). I also checked with Bob Grigsby at RMG here in the Bay Area, he said it would run $4-8K at his shop, and he seemed convinced that the dog teeth would be damaged, requiring replacement of the whole 1st and 2nd gear shaft.

So, given that my bid price was $25,100, which I thought was reasonable given what I knew about the car PRIOR to the PPI, now what? Should I try to get him to pay for the synchro job? Should I offer to split it with him? Should I just walk away? I think that if I paid for the PPI and offered him something for his troubles, he would take it.

The seller is selling because he's deathly afraid of any more repair bills. The next lowest bid was very close to mine. (Not that I wish anyone to pay that much for this car, but...).

Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Paul K

I would ask the seller to go halves on the cost of fixing the synchro.

AOW162435

My opinion - the car seems far from "perfect".

If he agreed to a Post Purchase Inspection, he obviously considered that you may walk based on the results.

An engine rebuild with such low miles raises more than a few suspicions on my part.

I would pay for the PPI (your responsibility whether before or after the sale), and kindly inform the seller that the car was not as advertised.


Andreas

alcanada

This is a concern for such a low milage car especially if the car had more than one owner. I would request for all the history and documentation. If you are still considering the purchase, go for a test drive and see if the syncho bothers you.

patela

2-owner car. Current owner and the current owner's now deceased boss. Car is on the other side of the country, so test drive is a little difficult.

Stealth 993

$25k seams cheap for a under 60kmi car. Was the whole engine rebuilt, or did it just get head work done? A nose respray is very, very common, they are rock magnets. My car with 36kmi needed to have the nose resprayed.

The bolster seams a little weird, what is "scuffed" can it just be dye transfer, dirt? The seats really wear well, & it takes some time to show real wear. My 95 C4 has just over 90kmi, & my seats look great!

The real issue is the trans. I trust the PPI, but was the fluid at the proper level? Does it shift ok? Does it pop out of gear? My point is, it might not be perfect, but it might not need to be done for quite some time.

I would most definitely pay for the PPI, you should no matter what happens. Ask him to pay for half, or just drop the price a bit. If not walk away. But if this is the color, options, & history you want, it might be worth it to work with him as much as you can.

tigerrat

I would be more concerned about the rebuild. How many miles ago? Enough to give you confidence in a good job? Any leakdown or compression numbers from your PPI? Regarding the trans, yeah ask the seller to deduct $2k for half of the repair, especially if he is aware of the problem. But if the car meets most of your wish list, I'd not get hung up on this. Ken

2Many Cars

Knock the price down a bit and buy it. If you have a rebuilt engine from a competent shop and a full PPI that is basically clean, except for the syncro, you have a good car. The seat wear could be normal if either PO happened to have a bad bad back or be somewhat large which could cause a bit more wear getting in and out. It's an easy fix.

LuftKuhler

+1

Davies

Depends what "engine rebuild" means. If it was a valve job, then I don't see the red flag. Weak valve guides have caused many low mile 993s to have their engines out. There's also the famous "missed shift" that can require a rebuild at any miles.

g_murray

Moses smell the roses!

I'll never understand how anyone can buy a car sight unseen. I have *PERSONALLY* known friends who did as much and got nailed, ALL the times they 'tried' it.

1) Front respray: yeah, front is a rock/ding magnet -- nothing unusual.
2) Partial bad gearbox: you'll need to drive it to see if it really bothers you. As said, it may just mean low level or 'old' fluid - or a change of fluid GRADE/VISCOSITY. As always, try the EZ (cheap!) stuff FIRST.
3) Seat scuff: those bolsters do take a beating. Nothing a $20 leather-repair-kit won't cure.
4) Bone dry engine: is he saying this with the engine tray on?!!! (don't laugh!)

I personally feel that it wasn't "as advertised". ANYONE who knows their gearbox is out-of-whack will, up front, mention that in the listing. Period.

If I were you, I would pay for the PPI (everybody does whether they take the car or not), and make a choice:

i) If the seller can come down by 1/2 of the amount that will be needed to repair the gearbox then I would buy the car and suck it up as having gotten away with murder.
ii) If the seller won't budge and starts putting 'pressure' on you ...run, don't walk.

Good luck!

Cordially,
Gerry

ironimages

+1 Buy one that you can go look at and test drive!

patela

More info in response to the various questions:

Pay for PPI: No question, I will pay for the PPI - I asked for it. Turns out that the seller paid because Pat wanted payment on the spot. (So the seller says).

Engine rebuild was a total rebuild, not just a top end. The shop that works on the car and did the rebuild described it as a result of the owner letting it run out of oil. The owner describes it as some mystery having to do with oil, pumps, valves and such (he's not a car guy by any stretch).

Transmission: Pat Williams said the car stays in gear fine and the trans otherwise seems ok, it's just a slow shift to wait for the synchro.

Seat: Pat was mystified by the wear on the bolster. I know it's not a big deal, more of a general indicator. He said it looked the owner wasn't a big guy, but it looked like he'd been getting into the car with a wrench in his back pocket.

Color/history/etc.: This color combo is definitely on my "preferred" list. Also, given location, I know the car has not seen salt which is good. History is mostly related to this mechanical stuff, which is not necessarily a plus (except that the entire drive train will have been "redone" in some fashion).

Paintwork: Not too worried about it as long as it's not horrendous. Chips and respray happen. And I live in a city, so they'll probably happen again.

Alternatives: There are a couple of cars in my area that are alternatives. One is a less preferred color for me (black/black) at the same price (around $25K) with 101K miles, which had a clutch and valve job done around 35K miles and very little since. Seems like a solid car, but if it will need shocks and a clutch soon, it's not much of an advantage at the same price. (Especially given the differential in labor rates between bay area and southeast). Another is a bit more expensive, and has about 80K mi, so a clutch may be in its future as well.

Test Drive: Anyone in the Memphis area able and willing to check this car out and offer a second opinion? Chuck Sertich was eager to help, but is out of town for a couple of weeks. Beer/dinner/scotch is on me for any takers.

Thanks!

Arun

AOW162435

A 993 carries with it nearly 12 quarts of oil. That's nearly 3 gallons. Pardon my curiousity, but how in the hell does one run out oil with such reserves?


Andreas

mhm993

Take the car off roading and knock a hole in the bottom? (knew there was a reason to keep the tray on.)