jackal2513

hi guys

i'd be very inetrested to hear from anyone who has built a proper RS recreation

what i'm mainly interested in is how far you went with the suspension and what you deemed necessary

I am consdiering doing this to my car next winter but would not want to change every single item ! The cost would be prohibitive.

I personally would deem the brakes, rs shift, clutch and flywheel, pulley, engine mounts, steering rack, rear subframe monuts, front uprights and tie rod as essentials.

When it gets to handling though the line becomes more fuzzy. On my list of essentials here I have monoballs, front and rear anti roll bars and drop links and bushes but then you get to parts which I am uncertain as to how much they add in terms of the RS feel and handling:

front and rear side members, front and rear A arms, rear Kinematic toe arm...

these parts obviously have stiffer bushes but how much of a difference does it make and would it be possible to modify my existing parts. I think the side chassis members would be overkill unless you were building an EXACT copy.

The other thing is seam welding and removing the sunroof... if anyone has details and costs of this I would be grateful.

Finally the question of LSD. Was it standard on the RS, would that be essential too ?

Bill Verburg

Mine is slowly conforming to RS spec
* 3.8RS vram engine built from a RoW M64/21
*** g50/30 Cup trans, RS/CS single mass flywheel & clutch(RS used the dual mass version), RS shift linkage
** RS motor, Cup trans mounts
***RS uprights & tie rods, rebushed Arms to RS spec. Replacing the sidemembers is too much $ for too little gain
*** JIC shocks 8/12, Mode front monoball/camber plate, JIC rear monoball mount
*** RS arms & solid side mounts in the back
* RS calipers & tt rotors
** DAS roll bar, Schroth 6pt harnesses, Recaro SPG XL seats/al sidemounts
* RS steering wheel
* stripped interior w/ al floors, I left the rear carpet & interior panels
* RS Speedline wheels
* Cup/GT2 2nd oil cooler
* RS aero package, front rear & sides
Right now it's pretty nice

to be done next winter
* RS door panels, simplified console and rear panels
* sunroofectomy, I do like it for street use but I need the helmet room
* way down the road, hopefully, Motec/9M package

I'd start w/ the suspension and seating then progress from there and/or grab appetizing pieces as they become available, like I did. I sued the star system, the more stars the more necessary, there are all kinds of excellent alternatives too.

jackal2513

thanks BILL

sounds nice.. thats a great colour you have there as well

a few quick questions..

1. how does the gearbox differ ? Longer 1,2,3rd ? Is it worth doing ?

2. what do you rebush the front A arms with ? and how do you know that this matches RS spec ?

3. Are the standard RS monoballs ok ? Id rather keep to proper RS parts if i can although i accept that more modern adjustable camber plates would might be better.

4. when you say rear solid side mounts do you mean the o/s and n/s subframe ? is this worth doing ?

5. how important is the gearbox mount ? I gather this a pain to fit ?


cheers

Rich

Monique

What Bill did is like building the Everest with Lego blocks. It is extremely labour and detail extensive. Plus probably very expensive

IMO... and only Bill can comment... he did this because he could not buy the original in the uSA as it was never imported.

In EU, you can get the real thing perhaps for less money than modding your own.

Good luck.

Flying Finn

Check Hank's RS clone at www.p-car.com

Bill's is "crazy" no doubt but that's the closest I know.

Bill Verburg

1) the motorsports gear boxes are night and day from the street boxes, is it worth it? To me yes, to others , who knows, you are talking $12-15k for a g50-32 RS/CS box, do a search there is a lot of info in the archives

2)Elephant racing has sport harness rubber A arm bushes, also available are p/u versions that I chose not to use.

3)Yes, the RS parts are excellent, Mode copied the RSR design

4)not sure what o/s n/s means but I used ERP solid subframe mounts in back. That and the RS suspension pieces and the JIC shocks were the best changes I made. But it depends on what you want from the car. I wanted a scalpel not a butter knife.

5) not important at all, I used it because it came w/ the Cup trans.

If I lived on your side of the pond I would have purchased a real RS/CS over here they are not obtainable for road use. Though I don't use it on the ropad much it is a ball for the ocasional fun drive. I do have another more daily driver C3 targa and other street vehicles for bad weather bad neighborhood trips.

jackal2513

thanks guys


a real RS in the UK is 110,000 GBP plus
so thats like 170k $

totally out of the question
if i spent 10k on mine i'd be mostly there in terms of handling and looks (I would do all the labour myself)


Bill, ns and os is nearside and offside. I gather that the RS uses a different subframe but it sounds like you just changed the mounts in yur existing subframe. I know there is the EVO tilt version as well.

Bill Verburg

to take a stock 993 to RS spec, budget ~ $35kUS

the RS subframe has stiffer rubber mounts and longer slots for adjusting suspension. A solid sub frame takes a lot of slop out of the rear. I haven't had any trouble geting all the - camber I want, so far anyway, if more is needed the existing sub frames can be modified to provise more range.

In front an RSR sub frame brace can also be added.

the tilt kit makes more sense on a 500hp car than on a 300 and I don't like the way it affects the cross memeber attachment

jaholmes

Bill,

Where can you source Mode Inc. parts. I see Pelican has the camber plates. Also, is there any difference what shocks you use with them. I assume they work with Bilstein and obviously JIC.

BTW, why are these better then the ones that come with JIC's.

TheOtherEric

I prefer to refer to my car as an "homage" to the RS rather than a recreation.

p.s. IMHO, the biggest bang for your buck regarding suspension would be a good set of JRZ or Motons. The RS parts may be nice, but not much bang for your buck. (sorry bill! )

Bill Verburg

Mode is sold thru Smart Racing which also has ERP monball/camber plates. Both are for Bilstein shocks, The bushes will need to be modified for use on JIC.

I had issues w/ the JIC losing alignment, Mode & JIC are much less prone to this issue.

Bill Verburg

While I agree that Moton or JRZ are much better parts, the key to bang for your buck is 'buck', the Motons are better but are also much more expensive than JIC especially so if you consider installed cost.

for most people fully threaded Bilstein hd are going to be the best bang for their buck, you get incremental improvement w/ JIC and more incremental improvement w/ Moton

none of them provide the maps that allow you to match to springs like the RSR maps
here are some typical RSR maps, you'll need to go to someone w/ a shock dyno to get this sort of info about Moton or JIC

TheOtherEric

I only meant that if someone asked me how to spend $5k on their 993 suspension, I'd strongly recommend Motons or JRZ with stock suspension bits. Of course, that's not very "genuine RS" so it depends on your goals.

And I definitely agree with Bill that anyone selling expensive shocks should provide shock dyno plots, period.

Uber 911

Where do you get a figure of £110k from? A quick look on Pistonheads reveals two up for less than £65k

jackal2513

from recent sales at Malton and Gmund and GTClassics


one of the cars you mention is LHD and a CatD
the other is also high miles and LHD (and also supiciously cheap)

I don't want a LHD car