Philly Woes Update
02-28-2009, 05:22 PM
#33
Instructor
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Hey guys! I wish I had something remarkably good to report, but that is not the case. I want to thank those of you who wrote publicly and privately to offer support. I also thank those of you who told me I got what I deserve by buying a car I had never seen, buying one with so many miles and being an idiot to believe anything the owner's mechanic had to say. Of course you are right, but that and a dollar won't buy me a cup of coffee.
Change is difficult when one reaches a certain age, especially when it signals a disruption of one's own self concept. My wife, my son, my neighbors and my mechanic can see it written all over my face: I am no longer a virgin having been royally screwed by Jeff Mason Clifford from the great state of Florida and his ebay store- dealsongreatstuff. Mr. Leal of German Specialties Inc. in Oldsmar doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with not having made me aware of the real state of things and persists in telling me this is a good car. Neither he nor the seller will now return my calls/ emails etc.
The Auction Insurance arm of ebay has been very pleasant but will not do anything to help me nor are they able to force the owner to do anything. The owner will also not return his calls/emails etc.
ebay is not concerned that the condition of the car is other than stated because I cannot prove that there is any prior undisclosed damage to the engine - missing bulb or not.
The EPA is likewise not able to help because I cannot prove that the tampering (not a violation in Fl) is a direct result of actions taken by owner or mechanic.
A private lawyer told me that the cost to pursue this matter would exceed any reward IF I won - which is not a certainty. So at this moment, I am holding a paddle made of Charmin and trying to navigate my way through this river of Caca!
i couldn't have done a worse job if I had closed my eyes and picked the first one my finger landed upon!
FINDINGS:
Four of the twelve plugs took almost three hours to remove because they had almost fused to the block. Mechanic estimated they might be the original plugs or at the very least, had not been changed in excess of 50k miles.
Rotors and Caps were in similar condition and were a bitch to get off. (Of course this took the cost of swapping out plugs/caps/rotors to over $1,200).
The engine is leaking from all seals.
The power steering hose is leaking into the engine compartment.
The plug wires are shot and have many areas where there is black electrician's tape holding them together.
The exhaust shields are rotten down to nothing on both exhaust arms.
The rear rotors are all chewed up.
The bottom transmission shield (cover) is missing.
The driver's side front wheel is at a very negative camber.
The oil needs to be changed.
ACTION:
I already had the mechanic change the plugs, caps and rotors. It may be that the wires are still connected to the misfire codes. We won't know until he buttons up the car and clears the codes and I do a reset. He wants to charge $600+ for the wires plus labor, but I can get them for $400+ How hard would this be to do myself? Any links that will tell me how to do it?
ADVICE:
Given the state of things, what do you all think is the next most important thing on this list to attack first, since I cannot afford to do it all at once?
With this car in the current condition, and given the state of the economy, I think it is a given that I would not be able to sell it for anything even close to what I paid for it (if I could sell it at all), especially after having to disclose condition information. So it seems I've got a project on my hand that will take some time to sort out. I had saved the recommended 10-15% for repairs, but it is clear this will exceed that!
In the meantime, I will live vicariously through all the great stories and experiences you guys post here about how much fun it is to own and drive these incredible cars.
Regards
Bernie
02-28-2009, 06:16 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Bernie,
I'm sorry to hear about your utter frustration and the fact that you were misled and frankly ripped off.
I agree that the market is now quite soft, and 'unloading' the car is probably not a very cost-effective decision. Since that is the case, I would approach your relationship with this car as one where you inherited a still finely crafted machine that was neglected for years, and it's now your job to rehabilitate and rescue the car.
As for next steps, I would focus on repairs that first and foremost make the car SAFE to drive. This would include anything to do with the braking system. All leaks are not created equal, and if your multiple engine leaks are merely weeps instead of gushes, holding off on the repair while making sure fluid levels are ok is probably fine. In fact, one of my favorite quips about older 911's (most/all of which leak constantly) is that they're not leaking, just marking their territory.
After the car is totally safe and road-worthy, I would focus on simple stuff that make the car enjoyable to drive. Alignments aren't that expensive and go a long way to make the car fun to drive.
Good luck!
Jason
I'm sorry to hear about your utter frustration and the fact that you were misled and frankly ripped off.
I agree that the market is now quite soft, and 'unloading' the car is probably not a very cost-effective decision. Since that is the case, I would approach your relationship with this car as one where you inherited a still finely crafted machine that was neglected for years, and it's now your job to rehabilitate and rescue the car.
As for next steps, I would focus on repairs that first and foremost make the car SAFE to drive. This would include anything to do with the braking system. All leaks are not created equal, and if your multiple engine leaks are merely weeps instead of gushes, holding off on the repair while making sure fluid levels are ok is probably fine. In fact, one of my favorite quips about older 911's (most/all of which leak constantly) is that they're not leaking, just marking their territory.
After the car is totally safe and road-worthy, I would focus on simple stuff that make the car enjoyable to drive. Alignments aren't that expensive and go a long way to make the car fun to drive.
Good luck!
Jason
02-28-2009, 06:55 PM
#35
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Sorry for your experience but once you fix it up you will really feel like its a member of the family and will not think about selling it. As said above and of what you've mentioned the rear brakes sound like next on the fix list. Thinking more about the really expensive stuff, did your shop do compression and leakdown tests? When you say seal leaks, do you mean gaskets and hoses or things like rear main or transmission seals? Any damage that caused the camber issue or just alignment? If this stuff checks out ok I'd say you are out of the woods and just need to work through things as time and money allows.
Good luck, Ken
Good luck, Ken
02-28-2009, 07:06 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Bernie - sorry to hear of your misfortune. Hope this doesn't get you down too much. Life is too short.
Hope you get the car the way you want it and get the enjoyment out of it you're looking for.
Cheers
Phil
Hope you get the car the way you want it and get the enjoyment out of it you're looking for.
Cheers
Phil
02-28-2009, 07:11 PM
#37
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Ok!!!
I was a hater of you buying this I admit to that!!
It does sound bad but lets not bang our heads against the wall!!
It is a used car!!
We need to put somewhere in the area of what 15% to 20% into almost any used car purchase. So lets not get too upset with the state of things we have here. What you need to do is to roll your sleeves up and get working on this thing!!! You can do the brakes yourself, exhaust shields, transmission cover, power steering hose.
This and many other things are very doable by YOU!! This car does not sound bad at all does it need TLC?? YES!!!!!
But it sounds as if the car just has parts that need to work that is it!!! If you do not realize that buying a used sports car can be a crap game get out!!!
I bought a wreck of a 911 with 60000 miles on it it needed all kinds of stuff even some light body work but I knew that any car for that price would. I am still fixing mine at the moment. I have an older Ferrari and the 911's are cheap compared to the cost of a Ferrari where service seems to run 5 grand just to get any little thing fixed on it. Half the time they do not even know what is wrong with it. I have just turned 40 maybe I do not have your wisdom or am a pessimist but if you cannot fix it or afford to fix or even want to fix it for some deep as yet undetermined reason do not cry about buying it in the first place!!!
You gotta get dirty bud the past is over!! Now get to work and replace some parts on your car or put it in the classifieds!!!
Good luck and remember to use safety stands when you are working on the rear brakes!!!!!!!'
All the best!!!!
I was a hater of you buying this I admit to that!!
It does sound bad but lets not bang our heads against the wall!!
It is a used car!!
We need to put somewhere in the area of what 15% to 20% into almost any used car purchase. So lets not get too upset with the state of things we have here. What you need to do is to roll your sleeves up and get working on this thing!!! You can do the brakes yourself, exhaust shields, transmission cover, power steering hose.
This and many other things are very doable by YOU!! This car does not sound bad at all does it need TLC?? YES!!!!!
But it sounds as if the car just has parts that need to work that is it!!! If you do not realize that buying a used sports car can be a crap game get out!!!
I bought a wreck of a 911 with 60000 miles on it it needed all kinds of stuff even some light body work but I knew that any car for that price would. I am still fixing mine at the moment. I have an older Ferrari and the 911's are cheap compared to the cost of a Ferrari where service seems to run 5 grand just to get any little thing fixed on it. Half the time they do not even know what is wrong with it. I have just turned 40 maybe I do not have your wisdom or am a pessimist but if you cannot fix it or afford to fix or even want to fix it for some deep as yet undetermined reason do not cry about buying it in the first place!!!
You gotta get dirty bud the past is over!! Now get to work and replace some parts on your car or put it in the classifieds!!!
Good luck and remember to use safety stands when you are working on the rear brakes!!!!!!!'
All the best!!!!
02-28-2009, 07:16 PM
#38
Racer
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Location: TX
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Best thing you can do is find someone in the area to help you handle the problems yourself. Paying $1200 for the plugs, caps & rotors is crazy. They are not difficult at all to replace. When you buy an old car you have to learn to DIY or it will cost you a fortune.
Hey guys! I wish I had something remarkably good to report, but that is not the case. I want to thank those of you who wrote publicly and privately to offer support. I also thank those of you who told me I got what I deserve by buying a car I had never seen, buying one with so many miles and being an idiot to believe anything the owner's mechanic had to say. Of course you are right, but that and a dollar won't buy me a cup of coffee.
Change is difficult when one reaches a certain age, especially when it signals a disruption of one's own self concept. My wife, my son, my neighbors and my mechanic can see it written all over my face: I am no longer a virgin having been royally screwed by Jeff Mason Clifford from the great state of Florida and his ebay store- dealsongreatstuff. Mr. Leal of German Specialties Inc. in Oldsmar doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with not having made me aware of the real state of things and persists in telling me this is a good car. Neither he nor the seller will now return my calls/ emails etc.
The Auction Insurance arm of ebay has been very pleasant but will not do anything to help me nor are they able to force the owner to do anything. The owner will also not return his calls/emails etc.
ebay is not concerned that the condition of the car is other than stated because I cannot prove that there is any prior undisclosed damage to the engine - missing bulb or not.
The EPA is likewise not able to help because I cannot prove that the tampering (not a violation in Fl) is a direct result of actions taken by owner or mechanic.
A private lawyer told me that the cost to pursue this matter would exceed any reward IF I won - which is not a certainty. So at this moment, I am holding a paddle made of Charmin and trying to navigate my way through this river of Caca!
i couldn't have done a worse job if I had closed my eyes and picked the first one my finger landed upon!
FINDINGS:
Four of the twelve plugs took almost three hours to remove because they had almost fused to the block. Mechanic estimated they might be the original plugs or at the very least, had not been changed in excess of 50k miles.
Rotors and Caps were in similar condition and were a bitch to get off. (Of course this took the cost of swapping out plugs/caps/rotors to over $1,200).
The engine is leaking from all seals.
The power steering hose is leaking into the engine compartment.
The plug wires are shot and have many areas where there is black electrician's tape holding them together.
The exhaust shields are rotten down to nothing on both exhaust arms.
The rear rotors are all chewed up.
The bottom transmission shield (cover) is missing.
The driver's side front wheel is at a very negative camber.
The oil needs to be changed.
ACTION:
I already had the mechanic change the plugs, caps and rotors. It may be that the wires are still connected to the misfire codes. We won't know until he buttons up the car and clears the codes and I do a reset. He wants to charge $600+ for the wires plus labor, but I can get them for $400+ How hard would this be to do myself? Any links that will tell me how to do it?
ADVICE:
Given the state of things, what do you all think is the next most important thing on this list to attack first, since I cannot afford to do it all at once?
With this car in the current condition, and given the state of the economy, I think it is a given that I would not be able to sell it for anything even close to what I paid for it (if I could sell it at all), especially after having to disclose condition information. So it seems I've got a project on my hand that will take some time to sort out. I had saved the recommended 10-15% for repairs, but it is clear this will exceed that!
In the meantime, I will live vicariously through all the great stories and experiences you guys post here about how much fun it is to own and drive these incredible cars.
Regards
Bernie
Hey guys! I wish I had something remarkably good to report, but that is not the case. I want to thank those of you who wrote publicly and privately to offer support. I also thank those of you who told me I got what I deserve by buying a car I had never seen, buying one with so many miles and being an idiot to believe anything the owner's mechanic had to say. Of course you are right, but that and a dollar won't buy me a cup of coffee.
Change is difficult when one reaches a certain age, especially when it signals a disruption of one's own self concept. My wife, my son, my neighbors and my mechanic can see it written all over my face: I am no longer a virgin having been royally screwed by Jeff Mason Clifford from the great state of Florida and his ebay store- dealsongreatstuff. Mr. Leal of German Specialties Inc. in Oldsmar doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with not having made me aware of the real state of things and persists in telling me this is a good car. Neither he nor the seller will now return my calls/ emails etc.
The Auction Insurance arm of ebay has been very pleasant but will not do anything to help me nor are they able to force the owner to do anything. The owner will also not return his calls/emails etc.
ebay is not concerned that the condition of the car is other than stated because I cannot prove that there is any prior undisclosed damage to the engine - missing bulb or not.
The EPA is likewise not able to help because I cannot prove that the tampering (not a violation in Fl) is a direct result of actions taken by owner or mechanic.
A private lawyer told me that the cost to pursue this matter would exceed any reward IF I won - which is not a certainty. So at this moment, I am holding a paddle made of Charmin and trying to navigate my way through this river of Caca!
i couldn't have done a worse job if I had closed my eyes and picked the first one my finger landed upon!
FINDINGS:
Four of the twelve plugs took almost three hours to remove because they had almost fused to the block. Mechanic estimated they might be the original plugs or at the very least, had not been changed in excess of 50k miles.
Rotors and Caps were in similar condition and were a bitch to get off. (Of course this took the cost of swapping out plugs/caps/rotors to over $1,200).
The engine is leaking from all seals.
The power steering hose is leaking into the engine compartment.
The plug wires are shot and have many areas where there is black electrician's tape holding them together.
The exhaust shields are rotten down to nothing on both exhaust arms.
The rear rotors are all chewed up.
The bottom transmission shield (cover) is missing.
The driver's side front wheel is at a very negative camber.
The oil needs to be changed.
ACTION:
I already had the mechanic change the plugs, caps and rotors. It may be that the wires are still connected to the misfire codes. We won't know until he buttons up the car and clears the codes and I do a reset. He wants to charge $600+ for the wires plus labor, but I can get them for $400+ How hard would this be to do myself? Any links that will tell me how to do it?
ADVICE:
Given the state of things, what do you all think is the next most important thing on this list to attack first, since I cannot afford to do it all at once?
With this car in the current condition, and given the state of the economy, I think it is a given that I would not be able to sell it for anything even close to what I paid for it (if I could sell it at all), especially after having to disclose condition information. So it seems I've got a project on my hand that will take some time to sort out. I had saved the recommended 10-15% for repairs, but it is clear this will exceed that!
In the meantime, I will live vicariously through all the great stories and experiences you guys post here about how much fun it is to own and drive these incredible cars.
Regards
Bernie
02-28-2009, 07:48 PM
#39
Drifting
Sorry to hear this Bernie. Suggest you do the maintenance piecemeal, and you'll end up with a fine car.
There are some big Porsche dismantlers in the East, who may have used heat shields and transmission covers. Just look in the back of Excellence.
There are some big Porsche dismantlers in the East, who may have used heat shields and transmission covers. Just look in the back of Excellence.
02-28-2009, 07:52 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Some of the stuff you listed are DIY stuff - certainly caps and rotors, oil and filters, cam covers, brake discs, transmission cover, exhaust shields and I bet if you took your time and use the resources on Rennlist the plug wires are doable. Yes you sunk a lot of money on the car and you have learnt a lesson the hard way, now you need to learn how to maintain your car - it can be fun but it can be frustrating too 
I've never done anything on a car before until I bought the 911. Too many people wanted to rip you off or couldn't be bothered to look after it well so I took it upon myself to maintain the car myself. Short of major work I am happy to spend my time fiddling around with the car. Make sure you buy proper equipment so that you can work safely under the car if you go this route. I bought myself a car lift as have many others on this board and it has paid for itself a fter a few years.
Harry
I've never done anything on a car before until I bought the 911. Too many people wanted to rip you off or couldn't be bothered to look after it well so I took it upon myself to maintain the car myself. Short of major work I am happy to spend my time fiddling around with the car. Make sure you buy proper equipment so that you can work safely under the car if you go this route. I bought myself a car lift as have many others on this board and it has paid for itself a fter a few years.Harry
03-01-2009, 03:29 AM
#41
Seared
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
03-01-2009, 10:28 AM
#42
Race Director
While this may be the case for air cooled porsches, I certainly don't think that goes for watercooled porsches, or other modern vehicles.
Its posts like these that make me turn back to looking at 996 Turbos, instead of 993s.
03-01-2009, 01:55 PM
#45
Weathergirl
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
That's not bad news.
Reading down the list, nothing there is uncommon for a car of that mileage that was owned by a less than fanatical owner and maintained by a less than fanatical shop. Mostly it's reasonably quick and inexpensive fix-it stuff that you can DIY or pay a shop to do at your option. Or things like oil leaks that air-cooled Porsche owners have spent 50 years deciding whether they're worth fixing at all.
Perhaps the standard for 993 inspections shouldn't be, "Is it functional/look OK/in good shape?" but rather, "When was it replaced?" Period. Something that's 90% worn out may work just fine. If it's a wear item, and it's original, then just budget for replacement no matter what the seller says.
Reading down the list, nothing there is uncommon for a car of that mileage that was owned by a less than fanatical owner and maintained by a less than fanatical shop. Mostly it's reasonably quick and inexpensive fix-it stuff that you can DIY or pay a shop to do at your option. Or things like oil leaks that air-cooled Porsche owners have spent 50 years deciding whether they're worth fixing at all.
Perhaps the standard for 993 inspections shouldn't be, "Is it functional/look OK/in good shape?" but rather, "When was it replaced?" Period. Something that's 90% worn out may work just fine. If it's a wear item, and it's original, then just budget for replacement no matter what the seller says.