Any of you guys running E85? I've been running it in my mustang street/race car now for a couple years. It's cheaper than fossil fuel and high octane to boot.

I don't want to hear - "its corrosive" and all the other passed on half-truths that are spread around the net by people with no direct contact using E85. I am just interested in hearing actual results. Most modern '87 - up american car fuel systems can tolerate the 85% alcohol mix (tuning is another story) and since alot of fuel in the states has some (up to 10%) ethanol in it the manufacturers have made sure their systems wouldn't have issues. I guess my question is did the Germans use stainless fuel system components or other materials resistant to alcohol? And for those worried about the corrosive nature of "methanol" be at ease because E85 does not use methanol. I have had raw aluminum in constant contact with E85 and absolutely ZERO sign of corrosion.

I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

 

I have had some ill effects from using E85. Not in my car but in one of my dirt bikes. The problem that I had was that it caused corrosion to the rings and they got stuck in the ring lands of the piston. Also it took off some of the Nikisil plating on the cylinder. I will say that the bike sat for the better part of last summer. But I was pretty bummed when I tried to start my bike and it was siezed.

 

Don't use E85 in any 911.

Talk to Bosch about it, too.

 

Why would you want to use that bio crap in your 993?
Just curious....

 

E85 needs about 30% more fuel for a particular air charge to keep close to stoichiometric (correct air to fuel ratio). That is probably outside of the range of adjustment available to the DME. What would happen is that the long term fuel trim would go to max enrichment and still not get there. At which point you are running lean on high octane fuel. Probably not a good idea.

Now, if you have a car with no issues and you swapped in injectors that had 15% higher fuel flow than stock, you might be able to get away with it. This would depend greatly on how much range the DME can handle.

Steve, other than what I have said, what is your beef with E85?

Bob

 

...'round these here parts, we process ethanol the greenest way possible - by drinking it: leave the Porsches to imbibe on aliphatic hydrocarbons, which is their birthright ...

 

Garth S got it right. Corn squeezins' is for drinkin'. not drivin'. We'uns in NC have known that fer years.

 

I am doing my NJ citizens a great deed when I run pure gasoline. I can't help but think I am putting food on the table when I pass those refineries.

Seriously, I would like to run E85 in my wife's Lexus but I have not researched the +/-'s. What I have read about E85 in not so much the car issues but the cost and energy issues in producing it and the effect on food, etc... prices. I do agree that we need to start somewhere and that there will be a price to pay in the short run for long term gain. Unfortnately, the long term gain conversations quickly turn to "reduce our dependence..........." which I understand on the surface, but the E85 discussions usually end up with the emotional part not the rational part. Will the short term problems with E85 really help us get to a long term gain?? I would like to think so.

 

Hi Bob,

My Lord,...where do I begin?,...

1) E85, while not as corrosive as a methanol-based fuel, is NOT kind to non-ferrous metals and is hygroscopic as hell. I'm talking about long,...not short-term effects.

2) The elastomers in the fuel handling system: pump, O-rings, gaskets, seals, lines, are not all Viton and suffer degradation with ethanol-based fuels. We see that with long-term use from E10 so E85 accelerates this problem. If you need confirmation, call Bosch Motorsports (who provide the special fuel pumps to the ALMS cars using E85) and ask them how often the pumps should be replaced,...

3) Cars that are designed specifically to handle E85 (flex-fuel) contain stainless steel components and all Viton seals,O-rings, etc to safely deal with this fuel concoction without long-term degradation and failure.

3) As you mentioned, E85 stoichometric air-fuel mixtures are very different from E10 ones and the Motronic system requires reprogramming, different injectors, and perhaps operating pressures to safely accomodate the use of E85 under all engine operating conditions.

Frankly, an engine equipped and optimized for E85 could be made to work very well with the proper fuel handling components, more compression, ECU programming. The problem is that engines designed to use both E10 & E85 don't do a great job of either since the configuration and optimal operating conditions are quite different to take advantage of the physical characteristics of each fuel.

I hope this answered your question.

 

How good is this guy ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ?????

Seriously?

Steve - your presence is priceless!

Simon

 

I have prepared my 964 race car to run e85 in a pure racing environment. This included rebuilding the fuel cell to to allow for ethanol, and replacing the fuel lines. My injectors are large enough to handle the extra fuel requirements. However...

1) e85 street fuel isn't consistent, it can vary from e65 to e85 depending on the fuel station and depending on winter or summer blend. Ethanol does not like to burn when cold, so the ethanol content is reduced in the winter. Flex fuel vehicles have a Siemens ethanol sensor that can determine the percent of ethanol and will provide that information to the ECU for proper mapping. I have purchased that sensor to be wired to my MoTeC ECU.

2) The Corvette team was not running e85 fuel, it was running labratory blended e60 fuel from KL Process Design Corporation which uses reclaimed wood to produce the fuel. There was a corresponding 16% increase in fuel consumption with that fuel and it was consistently blended. This was much like the blend consistency with racing gasoline.

3) Spark plugs need to be different and I've seen engines melted from using e85 without a proper spark plug.

4) Disassembly of the engines have shown corrosion to the aluminum parts in the engine.

I've decided to hold off on my e85 experiment for awhile and may use a stock engine to test it rather than a $50k racing engine.

 

alot of folks have switched over to E85 in the 944 turbo realm, with using a premix of oil in the gas tank to help reduce the drying effects of E85. It is very widely used in the Mitsu Evo and Subie worlds as well. I don't see nearly as much advantage in a non-FI car though

 

I agree but it is not just a prblem with elastomers. The plastics used in fuel sytems will absorb the alcohol and swell!

 

The E85 can dissolve old deposits in the fuel system. So if you decide to convert, make sure you at least change fuel filter fairly quickly after you do a conversion. (If you don't change the whole system).

In general Steve Weiner summed it up quite nicely.

 

I'd like to second Steve's and Geoffrey's responses.

You must change everything that comes in contact with the fuel. Viton seals, stainless steel or anodized aluminum, fuel pump, etc. It must be done, trust me.

I've done an E85 conversion to a GM3800. This was in college for the "future truck" competition. The main reason we did it was for emissions, but you do get a lot more power.

More power would be the primary reason to use it in a 911, but you must raise the compression to realize any gains. The 3800 we build had 13.5:1 compression. It sounded like a diesel! It also had cast iron heads and cylinders, so no worries about the aluminum. Don't know how the cast iron would hold up over a long period of time though.

In our case we did not have to remap the fuel curve. We simply swapped injectors to increase flow...and that's it. We let the stock computer manage it. It was a gamble, but it worked. Our emissions numbers proved it. We achieved SULEV on the standard highway test, which was performed at GM proving grounds. We also had the best ¼ mile time, that motor screamed, still gives me goose bumps.

Cold start can also be a problem, but E85 is 15% gasoline, which helps.