Just got deeply scr*wed....
06-14-2008, 10:25 PM
#377
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Now that I've seen the photos I have an opinion. When our shop was asked to perform a PPI for an out of town buyer we understood that in effect, we were hired to be the buyer's eyes also and so approached the inspection with additional consideration based on his/her profile (we asked a lot of questions up front). We took extensive photos with specific emphasis on details ANY buyer (enthusiast) or otherwise would want to know (and for the record, you could eat of the floor of our tracks cars so it's absolute bull**** to say the condition of this car is average for a DE rig). Furthermore, we would weigh in on the purchase price based on condition as we often brokered cars for both street and track use. That's also why we referred buyer's for our own customer's cars to an independent and obviously objective 3rd party shop so as to ensure the potential new owner was treated with nothing less than the same expert analysis and advice as every single one of our customers enjoyed (proud to have anyone evaluate a car prepared by us). This is especially important for dedicated track cars as there is a big difference between normal track wear and damage or even neglect. Moreover, enthusiasts buy cars all over the world sight unseen because they have experts they trust advising them all the way.
In this case they buyer overpaid ONLY because his expectations weren't met which is a direct result of a disconnect between the buyer and the shop that did the PPI (which should NEVER EVER have been the seller's shop to begin with....I'd love to see that PPI write up and any photos they may have taken). The burden remains on the buyer to vet the information the seller provides as both acurate and complete, price is not relevant, it's his car, he can ask $1M and if someone wants it bad enough, they'll pay it.
The moral - Make absolutley certain whomever you have inspect a car you intend to buy sight unseen crystal clear on what you want and expect and report back accordingly. There are vastly differing buyer profiles out there and the shop needs to understand yours in advance.
And for the record, our PPI's cost $400 and there was not a single instance of he said he said because a thorough evaluation (with photos) is 100% unbiased - the condition of the car is what it is, it's our job to document it so in the end there's only he said and what clearly is (fact). And believe me there were many cars where we knew in 5 minutes were not only misrepresented but also clearly not what we knew the buyer was expecting such that the PPI ended there with a call to the buyer to say walk. (a highly modified Protomotive 993TT comes to mind...the potential buyer was so disapointed and happy at the same time). It's a no brainer best practice that's good enough for your average ford or chevy www.carchex.com and it's clear the buyer didn't get that here.
The seller obviously did well but deserves no blame. The buyer didn't get was he was hoping for which I think is a direct result of the agent he hired to evalute his potential purchase. The buyer however is 100% responsible I'm afraid for not setting expectations at that shop and for using the seller's shop in the 1st place (and that is NOT a knock against the seller's shop). That's textbook conflict of interest.
End of story, move on.
In this case they buyer overpaid ONLY because his expectations weren't met which is a direct result of a disconnect between the buyer and the shop that did the PPI (which should NEVER EVER have been the seller's shop to begin with....I'd love to see that PPI write up and any photos they may have taken). The burden remains on the buyer to vet the information the seller provides as both acurate and complete, price is not relevant, it's his car, he can ask $1M and if someone wants it bad enough, they'll pay it.
The moral - Make absolutley certain whomever you have inspect a car you intend to buy sight unseen crystal clear on what you want and expect and report back accordingly. There are vastly differing buyer profiles out there and the shop needs to understand yours in advance.
And for the record, our PPI's cost $400 and there was not a single instance of he said he said because a thorough evaluation (with photos) is 100% unbiased - the condition of the car is what it is, it's our job to document it so in the end there's only he said and what clearly is (fact). And believe me there were many cars where we knew in 5 minutes were not only misrepresented but also clearly not what we knew the buyer was expecting such that the PPI ended there with a call to the buyer to say walk. (a highly modified Protomotive 993TT comes to mind...the potential buyer was so disapointed and happy at the same time). It's a no brainer best practice that's good enough for your average ford or chevy www.carchex.com and it's clear the buyer didn't get that here.
The seller obviously did well but deserves no blame. The buyer didn't get was he was hoping for which I think is a direct result of the agent he hired to evalute his potential purchase. The buyer however is 100% responsible I'm afraid for not setting expectations at that shop and for using the seller's shop in the 1st place (and that is NOT a knock against the seller's shop). That's textbook conflict of interest.
End of story, move on.
06-14-2008, 10:27 PM
#378
Nordschleife Master
06-14-2008, 10:40 PM
#380
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Thread Starter
Okay. So you got a bad buy. Think of this. There are couples out there that have a baby and the doctor tells them the child has down syndrome, or some other horrible condition that the family has to live with for the rest of their lives. Or the child is terminal...
The point is, sometimes life dishes out something you don't want or like. It flies in the face of your plans.
Well, it's just a car. Maybe it didn't fit your plans, but life isn't always what you plan it to be. Sometimes it isn't what you plan.
So, drive the crap out of the car. Meanwhile, think about what you might do to make the car special in a way that you didn't think of. Add mods, do a new paint, throw in a wing or whatever.
My point is, you look at this as a tragedy. Okay, you had your cry, now take a long look at this as an opportunity. How can you make this better and come out ahead?
Think about the parents that have that unexpected child with a permanent disability. Now just how bad is your situation? Sometimes God doles out something that looks like a horrible punishment. Maybe it is a blessing in disguise. However, it's your choice. You can feel sorry for yourself or you can take a bad deal and make it into something great.
Choose.
The point is, sometimes life dishes out something you don't want or like. It flies in the face of your plans.
Well, it's just a car. Maybe it didn't fit your plans, but life isn't always what you plan it to be. Sometimes it isn't what you plan.
So, drive the crap out of the car. Meanwhile, think about what you might do to make the car special in a way that you didn't think of. Add mods, do a new paint, throw in a wing or whatever.
My point is, you look at this as a tragedy. Okay, you had your cry, now take a long look at this as an opportunity. How can you make this better and come out ahead?
Think about the parents that have that unexpected child with a permanent disability. Now just how bad is your situation? Sometimes God doles out something that looks like a horrible punishment. Maybe it is a blessing in disguise. However, it's your choice. You can feel sorry for yourself or you can take a bad deal and make it into something great.
Choose.
Thx for your thoughts - absolutely right, already passed that stage
. Did you read what I do for a living...?Regards,
Matt
06-14-2008, 10:43 PM
#381
Drifting
06-14-2008, 10:58 PM
#383
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I meant for the principals involved, but you are right, of course.
But I'm afraid that there are those who already know this and don't need this lesson, and then there are others who cannot or will not ever absorb this wisdom - and then we'll have another "I got screwed" thread.
FWIW, I knew all this, and yet disregarded virtually every rule in this process when I bought - 2000 mi. away, no PPI, never saw it in person, bought from a dealer (another "no" in many peoples' books) - and everything turned out great. But I knew full well it could have gone the other way, and if it had, I would have never posted a thread like this - because I know who would've ultimately been to blame.
But I'm afraid that there are those who already know this and don't need this lesson, and then there are others who cannot or will not ever absorb this wisdom - and then we'll have another "I got screwed" thread.
FWIW, I knew all this, and yet disregarded virtually every rule in this process when I bought - 2000 mi. away, no PPI, never saw it in person, bought from a dealer (another "no" in many peoples' books) - and everything turned out great. But I knew full well it could have gone the other way, and if it had, I would have never posted a thread like this - because I know who would've ultimately been to blame.
06-14-2008, 11:28 PM
#385
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Matt,
You sold your '95 - a known quantity - to buy another '95 sight unseen. Paying a premium for it, you had time to fly roundtrip. Take a look. Ask questions. You let yourself down. Regardless of what you have stated earlier, your bringing this to the mother of Porsche forums appears as a last ditch effort to have your hurt kissed and made better through the pressure of public opinion.
While some here may have benefited from your mistakes, I maintain that it should have been kept private. But that's another lesson probably swept away in the tears of commiseration.
You sold your '95 - a known quantity - to buy another '95 sight unseen. Paying a premium for it, you had time to fly roundtrip. Take a look. Ask questions. You let yourself down. Regardless of what you have stated earlier, your bringing this to the mother of Porsche forums appears as a last ditch effort to have your hurt kissed and made better through the pressure of public opinion.
While some here may have benefited from your mistakes, I maintain that it should have been kept private. But that's another lesson probably swept away in the tears of commiseration.
06-15-2008, 12:09 AM
#386
Needs to Get a Life
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Matt,
You sold your '95 - a known quantity - to buy another '95 sight unseen. Paying a premium for it, you had time to fly roundtrip. Take a look. Ask questions. You let yourself down. Regardless of what you have stated earlier, your bringing this to the mother of Porsche forums appears as a last ditch effort to have your hurt kissed and made better through the pressure of public opinion.
While some here may have benefited from your mistakes, I maintain that it should have been kept private. But that's another lesson probably swept away in the tears of commiseration.
You sold your '95 - a known quantity - to buy another '95 sight unseen. Paying a premium for it, you had time to fly roundtrip. Take a look. Ask questions. You let yourself down. Regardless of what you have stated earlier, your bringing this to the mother of Porsche forums appears as a last ditch effort to have your hurt kissed and made better through the pressure of public opinion.
While some here may have benefited from your mistakes, I maintain that it should have been kept private. But that's another lesson probably swept away in the tears of commiseration.
Completely agree.
06-15-2008, 12:52 AM
#389
Rennlist Member
Basically, it's a rule to help ensure good, clean racing and no " rubbin' is racin' " mentality. PCA will not tolerate a competitor pushing another competitor off of the track just to gain a position, not does it tolerate dive-bombing tactics that result in body damage. Why, you may ask? PCA knows that we have nice cars and that we want to keep it that way. Walk through any PCA paddock and you will very rarely see car that does not look like an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10.
1. The PCA Club Racing Program is designed to be fun, safe and competitive. Good sportsmanship,
honesty, and a sense of fair play should exist at all times.
2. Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program, jeopardizes
safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. In addition to the normal
discretion of the National Stewards to deal with inappropriate and unsafe conduct during all Club Race
sessions, the 13/13 rule will be in effect at all PCA Club Racing events and will be imposed for such
conduct. Under this rule, any incident which results in car damage will cause the following:
A. The National Stewards will collect and review all information relating to the incident, including
corner worker and other observer reports, driver statements, and damage and incident reports
from the PCA Club Racing National Scrutineers (National Scrutineers), in order to make a
determination of fault.
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the
Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical
and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the
National Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this
probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges
will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement
to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program
will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be
required to return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and
report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall
be presumed to be at fault.
E. Any driver who has received a 13/13 must attend the Orientation Meeting at the next race in
which they compete.
F. Any competitor who has been determined to be at fault and has received a 13/13 may request
a review of the determination by written (or e-mail) request to the National Chairman within
thirty (30) days of the determination. Said request shall provide all documentation and/or
justification as to why the determination should be reviewed.
1. The PCA Club Racing Program is designed to be fun, safe and competitive. Good sportsmanship,
honesty, and a sense of fair play should exist at all times.
2. Conduct that is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program, jeopardizes
safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. In addition to the normal
discretion of the National Stewards to deal with inappropriate and unsafe conduct during all Club Race
sessions, the 13/13 rule will be in effect at all PCA Club Racing events and will be imposed for such
conduct. Under this rule, any incident which results in car damage will cause the following:
A. The National Stewards will collect and review all information relating to the incident, including
corner worker and other observer reports, driver statements, and damage and incident reports
from the PCA Club Racing National Scrutineers (National Scrutineers), in order to make a
determination of fault.
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the
Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to Medical
and then to the National Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the
National Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the National Steward. If during this
probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition privileges
will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition for reinstatement
to the PCA Club Racing National Chairman (National Chairman). Re-entry into the program
will be at the discretion of the PCA Club Racing National Committee and the driver may be
required to return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and
report to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the National Steward, shall
be presumed to be at fault.
E. Any driver who has received a 13/13 must attend the Orientation Meeting at the next race in
which they compete.
F. Any competitor who has been determined to be at fault and has received a 13/13 may request
a review of the determination by written (or e-mail) request to the National Chairman within
thirty (30) days of the determination. Said request shall provide all documentation and/or
justification as to why the determination should be reviewed.
06-15-2008, 01:10 AM
#390
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As I lock this thread.... Just had a very sobering evening tonight. House fire, one person came in dead with 3rd degree burns all over. Her husband was breathing but unresponsive. Mouth and lungs full of soot, probable brain injury. I intubated him (essentially blindly), paralyzed/sedated him, and put him on a ventilator. I'm now waiting to find a facility that has a hyperbaric chamber I can chopper him to.
So.... On some important levels I really don't care about the car, and I've certainly said my peace here about the substantiave issues.
Thank you again for all the comments. There were graceful things said and blunt things said, all relevant.
I will post some pics and work in progress info over the summer.
Regards,
Matt
So.... On some important levels I really don't care about the car, and I've certainly said my peace here about the substantiave issues.
Thank you again for all the comments. There were graceful things said and blunt things said, all relevant.
I will post some pics and work in progress info over the summer.
Regards,
Matt
