Advice needed re: seal/gasket work
10-24-2007, 12:50 AM
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Advice needed re: seal/gasket work
Last week I took my 1996 C4S in for its 70k service and asked for advice on a slight oil-burning smell I have been noticing for the past ~5k miles (not much oil is being consumed, maybe 1 quart per 1000 miles, which I understand is within spec).
On pick up of the car, I was told that I need to have the gaskets or seals (or whatever it's called - I failed to note the proper term and am not that experienced) replaced, which requires removal of the engine. The job would cost approximately $1k in parts and 35 hours of labor, totaling around $5k. The danger of not having it done is that it might blow out catastrophically; I was advised to have it done within the next couple of months and to drive gently in the interim. SO -- if I may, a few questions for the experts and those who have been through this already:
(a) could there be any other causes? (it was checked by a trained/experienced Porsche mechanic at Rockville Porsche - I've had good luck with them, but they are expensive naturally);
(b) is it best to have this sort of work done at a dealership?
(c) if not, can anybody recommend a good private Porsche mechanic in the Baltimore/Washington area for this sort of work?
(d) given that this is a 1996, should I have the valve guides checked and/or replaced at the same time? I have not had any trouble with this issue, but being a good Rennlist reader I know it is a common problem... Is there any reason NOT to do it if the engine's already out of the car, and the heads are already removed? or am I misunderstanding entirely what would need to be done?
I'm not anxious to incur extra cost but if this is something that needs to be done, I'd like to do whatever other work might be needed at the same time to save future hassle and expense... Or is that a bad mindset?
Thanks to all for any advice and thoughts you can offer!
On pick up of the car, I was told that I need to have the gaskets or seals (or whatever it's called - I failed to note the proper term and am not that experienced) replaced, which requires removal of the engine. The job would cost approximately $1k in parts and 35 hours of labor, totaling around $5k. The danger of not having it done is that it might blow out catastrophically; I was advised to have it done within the next couple of months and to drive gently in the interim. SO -- if I may, a few questions for the experts and those who have been through this already:
(a) could there be any other causes? (it was checked by a trained/experienced Porsche mechanic at Rockville Porsche - I've had good luck with them, but they are expensive naturally);
(b) is it best to have this sort of work done at a dealership?
(c) if not, can anybody recommend a good private Porsche mechanic in the Baltimore/Washington area for this sort of work?
(d) given that this is a 1996, should I have the valve guides checked and/or replaced at the same time? I have not had any trouble with this issue, but being a good Rennlist reader I know it is a common problem... Is there any reason NOT to do it if the engine's already out of the car, and the heads are already removed? or am I misunderstanding entirely what would need to be done?
I'm not anxious to incur extra cost but if this is something that needs to be done, I'd like to do whatever other work might be needed at the same time to save future hassle and expense... Or is that a bad mindset?
Thanks to all for any advice and thoughts you can offer!
10-24-2007, 02:24 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
Didn't the dealer give you a print-out/estimate of what they want to replace?
There are gaskets and seals. Seals are on rotating/moving parts. Such as the rear main seal (RMS). It's a pretty big check, might be worth a second opinion from an independent that will not perform the work.
There are gaskets and seals. Seals are on rotating/moving parts. Such as the rear main seal (RMS). It's a pretty big check, might be worth a second opinion from an independent that will not perform the work.
10-24-2007, 03:26 AM
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Sounds like a cash-flow device for the mechanic with the threat of a "blow-out"!
We need to know the exact "gaskets or seals" that need replacing. The typical leaks seems to be the valve covers (cheap to replace) and the chain cover gaskets (more money to replace but still cheap). Both do not require the engine to be dropped. The incidences of other leaks (Rear main seal (medium cost), oil return tubes ( cheap to replace), oil sensor (cheap-medium), oil lines, cam carrier to head (costly), chain housings to cam carrier (medium costly), cylinder barrels to case (costly), case through bolt seals (medium-costly) seem to be much lower.
It sounds to me like they will be taking the engine mostly apart to re-seal the engine. If they take the heads off then its prudent to do the valves ; it does not add that much to the cost and its likely it will need it anyways.
If you get a burning smell its likey the valve covers since they are directly above the heat exchanges. They are cheap to fix. Have you looked underneath to see?
I mean a cash flow device since its much cheaper just to keep adding oil until you can't stand it any longer...$5K will buy a lot of oil!
We can help if you can give more information. And BTW I would not take my car to dealer under any circumstances. Find a good independant and go with them.
Cheers,
Mike
We need to know the exact "gaskets or seals" that need replacing. The typical leaks seems to be the valve covers (cheap to replace) and the chain cover gaskets (more money to replace but still cheap). Both do not require the engine to be dropped. The incidences of other leaks (Rear main seal (medium cost), oil return tubes ( cheap to replace), oil sensor (cheap-medium), oil lines, cam carrier to head (costly), chain housings to cam carrier (medium costly), cylinder barrels to case (costly), case through bolt seals (medium-costly) seem to be much lower.
It sounds to me like they will be taking the engine mostly apart to re-seal the engine. If they take the heads off then its prudent to do the valves ; it does not add that much to the cost and its likely it will need it anyways.
If you get a burning smell its likey the valve covers since they are directly above the heat exchanges. They are cheap to fix. Have you looked underneath to see?
I mean a cash flow device since its much cheaper just to keep adding oil until you can't stand it any longer...$5K will buy a lot of oil!
We can help if you can give more information. And BTW I would not take my car to dealer under any circumstances. Find a good independant and go with them.
Cheers,
Mike
10-24-2007, 04:49 AM
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Hi Dan,
Sadly I suffered a simliar story a couple of weeks ago. My 94 993 has done 108,000 K's and at a dyno night noticed it smoking really badly. A trip to my independant Porsche mechanic found all of the seals and gaskets needed replacing, this cost a few $$$$ around $5k AUS
When I queried why it would need this as the K's are relatively low, the response was how often the car suffered heating up and cooling down in the traffic flow. On the highway the car can be kept cool, but with traffic lights up goes the temprature leading to the hardening and subsequent cracking of the parts.
But caution should always be applied, maybe a second opinion to ensure your's does need the treatment?
Sadly I suffered a simliar story a couple of weeks ago. My 94 993 has done 108,000 K's and at a dyno night noticed it smoking really badly. A trip to my independant Porsche mechanic found all of the seals and gaskets needed replacing, this cost a few $$$$ around $5k AUS
When I queried why it would need this as the K's are relatively low, the response was how often the car suffered heating up and cooling down in the traffic flow. On the highway the car can be kept cool, but with traffic lights up goes the temprature leading to the hardening and subsequent cracking of the parts.
But caution should always be applied, maybe a second opinion to ensure your's does need the treatment?
10-24-2007, 06:48 AM
#5
Whoa....
I was out one night recently, in line at a local Italian Ice place in my 993. Other cars were behind me and I happened to look in the rear view mirror and saw smoke waifting up from oil leaking on the mufflers. What an embarassment for such a nice car to be cooking. Luckily I had an upcoming appointment for a clutch replacement. While the motor was out, I had the valve cover and timing chain cover gaskets replace as well as the main seal. Total for all was $3,100.00 from a small mechanic. Motor is tight, clean and no more smoke. I believe your quote is a little high. If you really need to have the motor taken out for the gaskets, check into having your clutch done also if you have the miles on your 993. Best of luck!
10-24-2007, 11:46 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
I'd be more concerned about your 1k per quart. While it's technically within spec, you're using enough oil to indicate it's getting past the guides/seals and are close to needing a valve job - Which by the way can be done for around $5k. Complete waste of time and $5k removing the engine just to reseal at this stage IMHO.
10-24-2007, 02:55 PM
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Many, many thanks to all for your thoughts and input. I was loose with my terminology because I didn't have the dealer quote in front of me (and still don't right now) but the quote clearly stated what would need to be done and it was just me losing detail in translation. Other than being expensive, I trust this dealer but would be willing to go elsewhere for less expensive service if I can trust that provider too.
Use of the word "catastrophic" probably was my own invention too - I would consider it a catastrophe, but I doubt the dealer/mechanic used such a colorful word.
I forgot to mention that I had the clutch replaced at 60k miles, which was about a year ago (this car is my daily driver and it does experience a fair amount of stop-and-go traffic). This oil leak came on about half-way through the past 10k miles, during the heat of the summer - so that seems consistent with the overheating comment of "hamsterbunny".
Sounds like the things to do are: (1) get a second opinion and quote, preferably from a quality independent mechanic if I can find one; (2) if the valve cover or other gasket(s) need replacing, go ahead and do the valve job too.
Assuming this is all true, I'm definitely interested in finding a local mechanic I can trust. All suggestions welcome, and thanks again to all!
Use of the word "catastrophic" probably was my own invention too - I would consider it a catastrophe, but I doubt the dealer/mechanic used such a colorful word.
I forgot to mention that I had the clutch replaced at 60k miles, which was about a year ago (this car is my daily driver and it does experience a fair amount of stop-and-go traffic). This oil leak came on about half-way through the past 10k miles, during the heat of the summer - so that seems consistent with the overheating comment of "hamsterbunny".
Sounds like the things to do are: (1) get a second opinion and quote, preferably from a quality independent mechanic if I can find one; (2) if the valve cover or other gasket(s) need replacing, go ahead and do the valve job too.
Assuming this is all true, I'm definitely interested in finding a local mechanic I can trust. All suggestions welcome, and thanks again to all!
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10-24-2007, 04:46 PM
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At the risk of running for cover-our cars are now over a decade old and this is to be expected-replacing original seals, not spending multi thousand dollars that is. I would check with a good independant in your area as to the cost-you will probably cut it at least in half. I had mine done in Phoenix -no place for DIY work as I was in an apartment which frowned on such things. It was well worth the effort as now there are no runs, drips, nor oil flow. I do still keep a pan underneath just in case though.
Al
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10-25-2007, 02:44 AM
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my 97C2Cab w 104K miles was at the indep. for its oil/filter change. i knew the covers were leaking, could see it/smell it sometimes, but she runs great. i didnt say a word and he said, leave it alone, its not pooling ist just seeping. not worth your money to fix. brakes and rotors are orig and he said ive got another 5-10k left..... not yet.
Don seems like and honest guy at Star Tech European, Vallejo calif. im gonna stick with him. Knew all about manual top conversions bla bla. no affiliation, just an FYI for norcal renlisters. ds.
Don seems like and honest guy at Star Tech European, Vallejo calif. im gonna stick with him. Knew all about manual top conversions bla bla. no affiliation, just an FYI for norcal renlisters. ds.
10-25-2007, 06:50 AM
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At Speed in Hanover, Md. has a good reputation as does Ganady Sokaler {spelling} who's shop is just north of White Marsh. Perhaps someone else can correct my stab at this.
If you are going to keep this car for a long time, I would invest the money and do the valve job, but first have a leak down test done to see if you really need a valve job.
If you are going to keep this car for a long time, I would invest the money and do the valve job, but first have a leak down test done to see if you really need a valve job.
10-25-2007, 07:24 AM
#11
Last week I took my 1996 C4S in for its 70k service and asked for advice on a slight oil-burning smell I have been noticing for the past ~5k miles (not much oil is being consumed, maybe 1 quart per 1000 miles, which I understand is within spec).
On pick up of the car, I was told that I need to have the gaskets or seals (or whatever it's called - I failed to note the proper term and am not that experienced) replaced, which requires removal of the engine. The job would cost approximately $1k in parts and 35 hours of labor, totaling around $5k. The danger of not having it done is that it might blow out catastrophically; I was advised to have it done within the next couple of months and to drive gently in the interim. SO -- if I may, a few questions for the experts and those who have been through this already:
(a) could there be any other causes? (it was checked by a trained/experienced Porsche mechanic at Rockville Porsche - I've had good luck with them, but they are expensive naturally);
(b) is it best to have this sort of work done at a dealership?
(c) if not, can anybody recommend a good private Porsche mechanic in the Baltimore/Washington area for this sort of work?
(d) given that this is a 1996, should I have the valve guides checked and/or replaced at the same time? I have not had any trouble with this issue, but being a good Rennlist reader I know it is a common problem... Is there any reason NOT to do it if the engine's already out of the car, and the heads are already removed? or am I misunderstanding entirely what would need to be done?
I'm not anxious to incur extra cost but if this is something that needs to be done, I'd like to do whatever other work might be needed at the same time to save future hassle and expense... Or is that a bad mindset?
Thanks to all for any advice and thoughts you can offer!
On pick up of the car, I was told that I need to have the gaskets or seals (or whatever it's called - I failed to note the proper term and am not that experienced) replaced, which requires removal of the engine. The job would cost approximately $1k in parts and 35 hours of labor, totaling around $5k. The danger of not having it done is that it might blow out catastrophically; I was advised to have it done within the next couple of months and to drive gently in the interim. SO -- if I may, a few questions for the experts and those who have been through this already:
(a) could there be any other causes? (it was checked by a trained/experienced Porsche mechanic at Rockville Porsche - I've had good luck with them, but they are expensive naturally);
(b) is it best to have this sort of work done at a dealership?
(c) if not, can anybody recommend a good private Porsche mechanic in the Baltimore/Washington area for this sort of work?
(d) given that this is a 1996, should I have the valve guides checked and/or replaced at the same time? I have not had any trouble with this issue, but being a good Rennlist reader I know it is a common problem... Is there any reason NOT to do it if the engine's already out of the car, and the heads are already removed? or am I misunderstanding entirely what would need to be done?
I'm not anxious to incur extra cost but if this is something that needs to be done, I'd like to do whatever other work might be needed at the same time to save future hassle and expense... Or is that a bad mindset?
Thanks to all for any advice and thoughts you can offer!
I carefully reseated the stud and tighten down the nut and have not leaked for 7 years thereafter... In retrospect, the mech. and I never tried to turn the nut and stud assembly during inspection just figure it was striped and turning it more than 1/4 turn would have made it worse...
So, do get a second opinion and isolate the area. you never know it could be something very minor like a valve cover gasket...
10-25-2007, 12:40 PM
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Thanks again to all. Though I understand principles, I am not sufficiently trained (or equipped) to DIY much of anything, so I have to have a reliable mechanic. I have put a large (for me) amount of money into this car already and am not anxious to spend money unnecessarily; I do want to be able to drive it every day for the next 10 years if possible, though - so I'm willing to invest in necessary and useful maintenance (even preventive maintenance, if appropriate) that will protect my car/engine and extend its life... clearly, the question to be answered is whether or not this repair counts as one of those.
TRINITONY - what's ASG? Sounds like it would be pretty nearby - I can look it up with a little more info. Land Jet - thanks for your suggestions as well. I'm very grateful for all of this input. Rennlist rocks (but you all know that).
TRINITONY - what's ASG? Sounds like it would be pretty nearby - I can look it up with a little more info. Land Jet - thanks for your suggestions as well. I'm very grateful for all of this input. Rennlist rocks (but you all know that).
10-25-2007, 12:45 PM
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Thanks again to all. Though I understand principles, I am not sufficiently trained (or equipped) to DIY much of anything, so I have to have a reliable mechanic. I have put a large (for me) amount of money into this car already and am not anxious to spend money unnecessarily; I do want to be able to drive it every day for the next 10 years if possible, though - so I'm willing to invest in necessary and useful maintenance (even preventive maintenance, if appropriate) that will protect my car/engine and extend its life... clearly, the question to be answered is whether or not this repair counts as one of those.
TRINITONY - what's ASG? Sounds like it would be pretty nearby - I can look it up with a little more info. Land Jet - thanks for your suggestions as well. I'm very grateful for all of this input. Rennlist rocks (but you all know that).
TRINITONY - what's ASG? Sounds like it would be pretty nearby - I can look it up with a little more info. Land Jet - thanks for your suggestions as well. I'm very grateful for all of this input. Rennlist rocks (but you all know that).