Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Mo:

There is clear evidence that things have changed. Having looked at the innards of a LOT of 911 engines over the past 30+ years, the frequency of damaged cams and rockers (there are other items, too) in engines has risen, even in engines without clogged spray bars that typically caused those problems. From 1976 to about 2003, we hardly ever found these issues unless the oil was infrequently changed (thats obvious) or clogged spraybars.

Without question, there are extenuating circumstances that affect this such as improperly broken-in cams, bad oils, or poor maintenance but if one sees enough of these things, especially under more rigid conditions such as racing engines, you begin to see the trend. Its the abrupt change that originally got our attention factored with long-term experience with oils that contained lots of ZDDP. Too much of these elements constitute a bad thing that causes other problems such as excessive engine deposits, however history teaches what balance works properly from using a good product such as the old Kendall GT-1. Samples of that product have been analyzed and compared with today's oil chemistries.

Oil change intervals can be assessed by regular and frequent oil analysis to determine engine chemistries during the 4 seasons but few people actually do that. Fewer people know how to take an accurate sample of the contents of the engine and oil tank,...

Reading all the threads on this subject, both here and on Pelican, is educational for sure, but I'd strongly advise someone to talk to the people that maintain their cars to get an accurate picture of the effects inside these engines. IMHO, thats better than simply blindly choosing an engine lubricant based on what one reads in places like these,.......

Like anything else, there is a lot more to the story than what has been written here.

FLYT993

These oil threads, including the ones on Pelican are some of the most educational I've read. With my car the PO ran Castrol Syntec 10W-40. The car runs beautifully, with not a puff of smoke on startup after sitting for a week and has consumed about 2.5 quarts over the last 4k miles. With Mobil and others concoting new formulations of their oils..."old" (SL) to "new" (SM) back to "new/old" (SL) I'm going with what our esteemed Mr. Weiner supported...Redline 15W-50 and 5k oil changes. On a lighter note, at least with the KY vs. Astroglide debate, a "test" can be performed fairly quickly, for pennies compared to what these oils cost, and it will be alot more fun

aaronutk

I've been following these oil threads for a while, and the only thing I've really walked away with (as an engineer) is that I would really like to start doing oil analysis. So, what is the proper way to sample the oil in an air cooled Porsche? I just received a kit from Blackstone Labs with their pump. I drove the car for about an hour, getting it up to temp, and then sampled oil from the oil tank. However in a dry sump system with two filters, I'm not sure if this is the best method. Should a sample be taken from the case also?

--Aaron

bgiere

Aaron, I drain a sample from the engine sump. It is usually hotter than the tank and will contain less mositure. Also, that way you do not have to fumble with the tank plug if you are just trying to get a sample intsead of doing an entire oil change.

Doug Hillary

Hi,
again and sadly the emotive issue of ZDDP levels in modern lubricants has had a run

Focussing on one component of a lubricant's formulation is at best a little bit of "wishful thinking" if the real intent is to see if the lubricant does its intended task well.

Comparing similar specification engine lubricants by conducting a series of UOAs and focussing on wear metal uptake rates is really quite meaningless too and a waste of money

A UOA is best viewed as a "trend" analysis specific to your own engine - or within a family of absolutely the same specification engines. Remember that UOAs are an excellent tool to determine an oil's condition from. Intake system leaks can perhaps be isolated but as all wear metal measurements are in PPM it is the trending over time that is most relevant. An experienced professional can perhaps determine an impending fault (liquid cooling system etc)

A single Used Oil Analysis (UOA) result either alone or when compared to others from dissimilar specification engines will not be truly meaningful regarding wear metal uptake rates - unless of course it is simply used to tell if the oil should be drained or not

Search in the 928 Forum under "Oil Condition Report" for the ten or so UOAs from my car over the last nearly five years. I keep a database on other's 928s and I have hundreds of UOAs from my truck fleet's engines (common family, Detroit Diesel "Series 60") taken over a decade or so

bgiere's method of extracting a sample is the best - a small extractor pump works well. Once you use a certain method always repeat it next time(s). If taking a UOA at OC time allow a little of the warm (>60C) oil to be "wasted" first after removing the drain plug

At times it seems easy for some people to forget that engine lubricants are engine lubricants, and regardless of the Brand those that meet similar specifications will all perform about the same. Any significant increase in engine or component life will be to all intents and purposes almost impossible to measure!

Exchanges on oil specifications in the 911 Forum as follows may be of interest

https://rennlist.com/forums/911-forum/341405-oil-question.html

Regards

bv shady

So is the consensus not to use the new mobil 1 . I am looking to change my oil/filters this weekend. I change the oil once a year drive 1000-1500 a year98 c2s Is redline the way to go or is it okay to use mobil 1 TIA -PAUL

tj90

Whats funny about this is that the enthusiast community - a bunch of hacks when it comes to engine oil formulations - think we can out-think the oil companies - with their million dollar R&D budgets,and the SAE that have proven that SM formulations pass wear tests BETTER than SL formulations.

Remember ZDNP is only good for scuffing - at the most extreme RPMs when oil is not providing the thin barrier of lube. Our engines top out at 6500. compare that to any modern redlines that are 7-8k RPMs. Dont you think that the oil companies are altering formulations to increase the protection across the entire RPM range? Metal is only useful once the oil cant "hang on" anymore. How many times and how long are you hitting redline? Cruising around at 4-5k RPMs I doubt there is much scuffing going on - unless your breaking in a new motor hence the EOS....
THe jury is still out on the SM formulation, but if you think your motor is going to blow up using it, you pretty much have to be conspiracy theorist because your throwing out all the SAE data that proves that the amount of acceptible wear is less..

bgiere

As Doug has said, trend analysis is a great way to analyze a n engine/oil combo. I have 5 years of UOA's (used oil tests) from my 3.2 911 using Chevron and Rotella 15w40...I'll continue using the new CJ-4/SM formulas and we'll see if my trend changes. Once I run a few drain intervals I think I can compare them with past years and see if wear changes for the better or for the worse. This car is used for street driving, as well as some track days.

FLYT993

Doug, I respect your knowledge in this area, as it is far superior to mine. However, I'm perplexed at the statement in your last paragraph....so maybe you can clarify....is it your opinion that a 15w-50 from "ACME" Oil Company is just as good as a 15w-50 from Mobil 1, or Redline, et al?

TJ90...if the SM formulations are "better" than the SL's and these companies spend millions in R&D, why would Mobil revert back to the "old" formulation? There has to be some validity to why they would seemingly reverse course.

I'm not trying to get into a debate, just trying to benefit from the wisdom and experience of those more knowledgeable in this area than me. I know there are plenty of guys who do touch the 6800 rpm limit regularly. In fact, Callas told me after he serviced my car...."take her to redline every now and again", and I know Robin runs his 993 pretty hard too. Thoughts?

tj90

Dan: Look at the back of the "new" M1. Its still SM rated. It still has the same level of Zn and P as the EP rated oil. It appears that M1 changed the packaging and explicitly states that its SL/SM rated. Even though all SM oils were backward compatible to SL rating all along. It appears that M1 just changed the packaging with the "new" oil. I cant say for certain, cause I have not seen any tests for the additive packages. Looks like the marketing department saved Mobil once again!

Also, my point of the redline. Im saying that our 993 motors are worn-in at this point. There should be minimal metal-on-metal scuffing occuring. The SL or SM oils are designed to provide the interface between metal parts for the entire rev range. Our 6500 RPM limit is not uncommon for todays cars. Doesnt f-cars redline closer to 8k? CGT? I dont think redlining "italian tune-ups" are a bad thing. But give the oil companies credit, I bet the SM is formulated to provide plenty of protection for these motors - maybe beyond 6500 RPM before the Zn and P kick-in.

I am putting my money where my mouth is - you will never see me throwing my own homebrew additive packages into my p-car - or my Ford for that matter. No one can say for certain what negative interactions may be occuring with 2 types of additive packages being blended. Thats a risk Im not willing to take and porsche does not endorse this. (Remember the whole PTFE mess)

FLYT993

Sum-muh-muh-bitches! And if the ZDDP is the same between the "standard" and EP versions, what is the benefit of the EP, besides more jazzy labeling??

I'm with you regarding the home brew additives. Not on my watch...I'm already jittery as it is, with anything relating to the performance and longevity of the engine. Since we all know the GT3 redlines at 8400, I wonder what the factory fill is on those machines, i.e, weight and brand. I'm due for an oil change in another 1k miles or so....I think I'll probably go with what Steve has supported...Redline 15w-50. Always enjoy reading your posts TJ...keep it up

Doug Hillary

Hi,
Dan - The operative words in the paragraph were "similar specifications"

As an example in Porsche's 2005 TSB about 70 lubricants from 45 Oil Companies/Blenders/OCSubsidiaries lubricants are Listed as Approved. Of these 99% are of SAE40 (0w-40 or 5w-40) viscosity and one is SAE50 (M1 5w-50) viscosity
When used in the correct ambient range according to the Approvals there is NO conclusive evidence than any one of the 70 lubricants Listed will significantly improve engine/component life over any other one Listed

This Forum being USA based concentrates on the API's quality rating system, and I understand and accept that as we primarily do the same thing here in Australia.

How "fragile" this can be is indicated in this Detroit Diesel Publication (7SE270) from 1999 (and later);

"A marketer is required to license his oil with API in order to display the symbol. Beware that some marketers may indicate that their products "meet" API requirements. This is not adequate. Only oils licensed by API should be used in Detroit Diesel engines"

Many "boutique" oil blenders in NA use "meet", "conforms to", "meets Porsche approval" and so forth without the true story being disclosed!

Fortunately however Porsche base their lubricant specifications on the ACEA quality rating system and since 1996 the ACEA's A3/B3 cam wear test protocols have remained exactly the same
I have a copy of their latest (effective Feb 2007) standards and I can confirm that no changes have been made in the eleven year period

Perhaps we should spend more time on discussing the merits of the ACEA's quality protocols instead of getting hung up on the API's SM/SL etc and where ZDDP fits into it all

As for engine revs, higher revs are not always what "loads up" the valve train. A "Boundary Lubrication" situation is present at slower and heavier load points too. Various polymers interact at various temperatures to ensure the various loads are taken care of and this is the secret of the base lubricant and its additive package. This is why Porsche uses the ACEA's A3/B3 minimum High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) specification - measured at 150C - which has a minimum of >3.5cSt and probably why no SAE30 oils are Approved (except V6 Cayenne). Porsche significantly extend the duration of ACEA's HTHS test protocol as one of the Approval elements

What is important is establishing full lubricant flow from a cold start and then maintaining the lubricant in a range from around 90C to 110C. Using the correct viscosity is an essential component in prolonging engine/component life

tj90, FLYT993 - You are wise to be circumspect about adding any supplementary additives to either a conforming HDEO or a Porsche Approved lubricant. As an example, at high concentrations the new organic ash-less Friction Modifiers (FM) are more effective than even high levels of molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC). So, to interfere with the structure of an excellent modern lubricant is inviting the real risk of an undesirable additive clash

As for EM - they are marketers and I suppose you package and advertise what appeals and is the "in thing". IMHO EM have a lot to learn about what we perceive as marketing, but BP-Castrol may be even worse!

I could go into much more detail but I am sure that most people are bored to death by now!

Regards

Charles Navarro

Doug, I think I know my suggested reading for my free time. I need to look into the ACEA standards. I'm not very impressed by the API sequences, especially the newest IIIG. I posted this over on Pelican:

Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Momence, IL 60954
Posts: 1009
I also thought it was worth noting that I was going through the various test sequences, such as the IIIE, IIIF, VD and made a shocking discovery. The VD sequence for API SE/SF allowed for max average 25 micrometers cam and lifter wear.

With the IIIE sequence for the API SG/SJ & GF-1 and GF-2, the max average rises to 30 micrometers.

The IIIF sequence for the ILSAC GF-3 allows the max average of 20 micrometers cam and lifter wear, a great improvement.

The IIIG sequence for the API SM and ILSAC GF-4 now allows for the max average of cam and lifter wear to be a whopping 60 micrometers. The focus on this newest sequence is more for control of weighted piston deposits and other factors, not cam and lifter (rocker or cam buckets in our case) wear.

Doug Hillary

Hi Charles,
yes the ACEA's test protocols are very transparent and act as the basis for individual Euro engine makers to promolgate their own standards
MB for instance have had their own test protocols for perhaps 60-70 years. I used these from over 40 years ago and still have one of their "Booklets" from that era

I started to "walk around" the API's standards MM, MS DG and etc in the 1960s - prefering instead the CAT, Mil, and other engine maker's quality standards. In recent years the diesel engine makers have made the API become a little more like the ACEA in using the makers requirements as a baseline

One great problem for engine makers is to get Dealers, Service Providers and Sevice Managers in fleets to follow the Approved Oils Lists. One significant warranty claim component is the failure to follow such things. MB and Audi-VW in NA know a lot about that!

Insufficient training about lubrication and lubricants is given to Mechanics and Service personnel
My two youngest sons are diesel engineers, one with CAT and the other with VW-MAN-Western Star(MB), and they often discuss this point with me

Keep up the good work Charles

Kindest Regards

aaronutk

Ok, if I want to extract the oil out of the sump between changes, so I can start building a history, what is the best way to do this on a 993? Should I just pull the plug every time, or can I pump oil out of the sump via the dip stick?

Thanks again, this has been very informative,
Aaron