Mobil 1 15w-50 vs. 15w-50 Extended Life
03-14-2007, 10:56 AM
#46
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Considering checking the oil is about as far as car maintanence I go, Im learning more about oil than than I know about global warming. And here I thought everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarden.
03-14-2007, 12:30 PM
#47
RL Technical Advisor
Originally Posted by glenn '88 944S
Steve,
Oh great ! Based on eariler Rennlist and Pelican Board forum discussions, I bought a case of the GM EOS (only way I could order it) !
More confused than ever,
Glenn
Oh great ! Based on eariler Rennlist and Pelican Board forum discussions, I bought a case of the GM EOS (only way I could order it) !
More confused than ever,
Glenn
03-14-2007, 02:18 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by FLYT993
So my question is this, what is the best brand/grade of the oils the manufacturer of the vehicle recommends?
For the thin oil advocates, there's a pretty consistent theme on this board of going with OEM parts and specifications whenever possible...does that edict not apply to the factory's advice about oil? And if not, why not?
For the thin oil advocates, there's a pretty consistent theme on this board of going with OEM parts and specifications whenever possible...does that edict not apply to the factory's advice about oil? And if not, why not?
03-14-2007, 02:49 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
Hi Grant:
I see nothing wrong by using the V-Twin version of M1 aside from sub-freezing weather issues from a 20w-50 oil. Its formulated for high-output air-cooled engines that run high oil temps and contains sufficient ZDDP to protect these engines.
For those who operate their cars in sub-35 deg F conditions, I'd use something thinner for improved starting lubrication and that could be the 15w-50 or 0w-40 stuff.
One more tip: If I was going to use the 0w-40, I would disconnect the clutch pedal interlock that prevents starting unless the pedal is depressed. This reduces wear on the crankshaft thrust bearing (and we've seen excessive wear on those in cars so equipped). Those thin oils do not protect the bearing on a cold start with the pedal depressed.
Mark: Your Chevy dealer stocks those additiives as does Jegs.com
Glenn: If you add Cam & Lifter Prelube to the oil at each change, I think you can use the SM-rated M-1. Personally, I would not use a 5w-40 oil of ANY kind in an air-cooled engine.
I see nothing wrong by using the V-Twin version of M1 aside from sub-freezing weather issues from a 20w-50 oil. Its formulated for high-output air-cooled engines that run high oil temps and contains sufficient ZDDP to protect these engines.
For those who operate their cars in sub-35 deg F conditions, I'd use something thinner for improved starting lubrication and that could be the 15w-50 or 0w-40 stuff.
One more tip: If I was going to use the 0w-40, I would disconnect the clutch pedal interlock that prevents starting unless the pedal is depressed. This reduces wear on the crankshaft thrust bearing (and we've seen excessive wear on those in cars so equipped). Those thin oils do not protect the bearing on a cold start with the pedal depressed.
Mark: Your Chevy dealer stocks those additiives as does Jegs.com
Glenn: If you add Cam & Lifter Prelube to the oil at each change, I think you can use the SM-rated M-1. Personally, I would not use a 5w-40 oil of ANY kind in an air-cooled engine.
Steve, I've read through the "official" oil recommendations TSB from Porsche that Jason linked to.....and so I'm in need of an education as to why you dismiss the 5W-40 outright, when that seems to be the prevelant recommendation from Porsche?
03-14-2007, 04:03 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
I just called the Havoline (ChevronTexaco) technical line and the guy I talked to was very familiar with the current controversy with the SM line of oils. He confirmed that the new SM oils are reducing the levels of Zn and P to conform to government mandates and improve cat lifetimes. However, they developed non-metallic additives to offset the reduction of ZDDP to keep engine wear protection. How can they prove this? Well the SM standard for engine wear is showing superior wear protection than oils that conformed to the SL standard. He specifically told me that you are "playing with fire" by adding any additive that alters the chemistry of the metallic and non-metallic additive package that was designed by their scientist. What are the non-metallic additives that are offseting the metal ones that are being replaced? He did not know and if he did know, he could not tell me because its proprietary.
Does anyone know when porsche will publish a revised oil list that incorporates the new SM oils?
Here is a patent from Ford (1985!!!) regarding non-metallic oil additives:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4554085.html
"Presently, one of the most commonly employed lubricating oil additives is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDTP). This multifunctional lubricant additive was initially added to automobile lubricants as an antioxidant, but now is more widely used as an antiwear additive. However, recent studies have indicated that the combined presence of both zinc and phosphorus in automobile exhaust, which results from the decomposition and use of ZDTP, decreases the longevity of catalytic converters on automobiles."
"It has been found that the disulfides and organophosphorus compounds of this invention, when employed singly in lubricants, are less effective than the ZDTP additives. However, when employed together in an oil, they appear to produce a synergistic effect in terms of antioxidant-antiwear action, which makes the combination comparable to that provided by the ZDTP additives."
Does anyone know when porsche will publish a revised oil list that incorporates the new SM oils?
Here is a patent from Ford (1985!!!) regarding non-metallic oil additives:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4554085.html
"Presently, one of the most commonly employed lubricating oil additives is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDTP). This multifunctional lubricant additive was initially added to automobile lubricants as an antioxidant, but now is more widely used as an antiwear additive. However, recent studies have indicated that the combined presence of both zinc and phosphorus in automobile exhaust, which results from the decomposition and use of ZDTP, decreases the longevity of catalytic converters on automobiles."
"It has been found that the disulfides and organophosphorus compounds of this invention, when employed singly in lubricants, are less effective than the ZDTP additives. However, when employed together in an oil, they appear to produce a synergistic effect in terms of antioxidant-antiwear action, which makes the combination comparable to that provided by the ZDTP additives."
03-14-2007, 06:31 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
The factories official recommendation for oil is published in a technical service bulletin.
Mobil 1 15W50 STD/EP is *not* on that list.. unless i missed it in the 3 times i looked.
The Weissach guys up here recommended 5W50 when i asked them last time as 15W50 is impossible to get off the shelf in Vancouver.
What strikes me as 'odd' is for something being this important you'd think there would be an simpler answer to the question.
rob.
-
03-14-2007, 07:23 PM
#52
RL Technical Advisor
Originally Posted by FLYT993
Steve, I've read through the "official" oil recommendations TSB from Porsche that Jason linked to.....and so I'm in need of an education as to why you dismiss the 5W-40 outright, when that seems to be the prevelant recommendation from Porsche?
I too, have read that TSB in depth.
My recommendations are based on personal experience and sometimes "official" factory recommendations are not always based on the long-term interests of the customer.
03-14-2007, 08:02 PM
#53
Originally Posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
Hi Dan:
I too, have read that TSB in depth.
My recommendations are based on personal experience and sometimes "official" factory recommendations are not always based on the long-term interests of the customer.
I too, have read that TSB in depth.
My recommendations are based on personal experience and sometimes "official" factory recommendations are not always based on the long-term interests of the customer.
I understand. When the bottom line is the "be all" and "end all" of any business objective, I'm not too surprised. But that just begs the question even further, because one could resonably say to oneself...."well, if the official oil recommendations aren't always in the best interest of the customer...what else falls into this category?"
I read an old Excellence oil article that said, 90% of engine wear occurs on cold/start-up. Given the engineering prowess of nearly every automobile manufacturer on the planet, this is hardly a problem WITHOUT a solution.
03-14-2007, 08:43 PM
#54
RL Technical Advisor
Originally Posted by FLYT993
I understand. When the bottom line is the "be all" and "end all" of any business objective, I'm not too surprised. But that just begs the question even further, because one could resonably say to oneself...."well, if the official oil recommendations aren't always in the best interest of the customer...what else falls into this category?"
I read an old Excellence oil article that said, 90% of engine wear occurs on cold/start-up. Given the engineering prowess of nearly every automobile manufacturer on the planet, this is hardly a problem WITHOUT a solution.
I read an old Excellence oil article that said, 90% of engine wear occurs on cold/start-up. Given the engineering prowess of nearly every automobile manufacturer on the planet, this is hardly a problem WITHOUT a solution.
This subject was first broached a few weeks ago on the Pelican 911 Forum when someone wrote about the reduced ZDDP levels in the current crop of motor oils and what that meant. I contributed in the thread about my experience with more frequent cam and rocker replacement due to issues beyond plugged/obstructed spraybars that I could attribute to the engine oil reformulations. I've seen the same things in other engines,.......
It should be said that overall, few engines (to date) have shown excessive cam & rocker wear but its certainly higher than before (prior to '03) and this was cause for some concern, given the situation. Many folks reading these threads both here and on Pelican seemed to have gotten overly concerned and I think this has been blown a bit out of perspective.
(I won't say "panic") There are MANY factors that influence wear in IC engines and oil formulation is just one. You are right, the majority of overall wear occurrs at startup and oil viscosity as well as chemistry plays a big role here. Like everything else we do; choosing oils is a compromise of sorts as we endeavor to ensure immediate lubrication at startup AND still provide adequate protection when the engine runs at maximum temperatures. Read what I wrote to GrantG above about thrust bearing wear.
At this juncture, I think its important to point out two things:
1) Engine oil temps are sampled at one place in these engines and there are other spots where temps are higher.
2) Average oil temps in an air-cooled engine can be a lot higher than a water-cooled one for the obvious reasons (I hope) and whats "good for the gander, isn't always good for the goose".
Air/Oil-cooled and water-cooled engines have their own particular oil viscosity needs based on usage and local temperatures also play a large role in choosing the correct oil for one's cars. Whats good for a Cayenne Turbo might not be the best for a 993TT and further, the correct choice oil for a 993 for someone living in Phoenix isn't going to be the same for someone living in Chicago,...
I won't comment on why Porsche recommends 0w-40 for everything but expediency and convenience might both be factors in that.
I've seen a LOT of 911 engines over the past 30+ years and my advice is based on that. I will not recommend the use of thin oils to my customers unless they live in a cold climate where the car will be operated during the winter months.
Now,........race engines are a whole 'nuther subject where thinner oils pay dividends in terms of HP and reduced operating temps. Long-term longevity is NOT part of this equation,.....
I hope this clarifies things a bit. Please feel free to call me anytime if you need further assistance.
Last edited by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems; 03-15-2007 at 05:14 AM.
03-15-2007, 04:06 AM
#55
Steve, thanks for the clarification and insight. I know we all appreciate you weighing in on these subjects. 
03-17-2007, 07:57 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
I think some perspective is required here.
This subject was first broached a few weeks ago on the Pelican 911 Forum when someone wrote about the reduced ZDDP levels in the current crop of motor oils and what that meant. I contributed in the thread about my experience with more frequent cam and rocker replacement due to issues beyond plugged/obstructed spraybars that I could attribute to the engine oil reformulations. I've seen the same things in other engines,.......
It should be said that overall, few engines (to date) have shown excessive cam & rocker wear but its certainly higher than before (prior to '03) and this was cause for some concern, given the situation. Many folks reading these threads both here and on Pelican seemed to have gotten overly concerned and I think this has been blown a bit out of perspective. (I won't say "panic")
There are MANY factors that influence wear in IC engines and oil formulation is just one. You are right, the majority of overall wear occurrs at startup and oil viscosity as well as chemistry plays a big role here. Like everything else we do; choosing oils is a compromise of sorts as we endeavor to ensure immediate lubrication at startup AND still provide adequate protection when the engine runs at maximum temperatures. Read what I wrote to GrantG above about thrust bearing wear.
At this juncture, I think its important to point out two things:
1) Engine oil temps are sampled at one place in these engines and there are other spots where temps are higher.
2) Average oil temps in an air-cooled engine can be a lot higher than a water-cooled one for the obvious reasons (I hope) and whats "good for the gander, isn't always good for the goose".
Air/Oil-cooled and water-cooled engines have their own particular oil viscosity needs based on usage and local temperatures also play a large role in choosing the correct oil for one's cars. Whats good for a Cayenne Turbo might not be the best for a 993TT and further, the correct choice oil for a 993 for someone living in Phoenix isn't going to be the same for someone living in Chicago,...
I won't comment on why Porsche recommends 0w-40 for everything but expediency and convenience might both be factors in that.
I've seen a LOT of 911 engines over the past 30+ years and my advice is based on that. I will not recommend the use of thin oils to my customers unless they live in a cold climate where the car will be operated during the winter months.
Now,........race engines are a whole 'nuther subject where thinner oils pay dividends in terms of HP and reduced operating temps. Long-term longevity is NOT part of this equation,.....
I hope this clarifies things a bit. Please feel free to call me anytime if you need further assistance.
Steve Weiner
This subject was first broached a few weeks ago on the Pelican 911 Forum when someone wrote about the reduced ZDDP levels in the current crop of motor oils and what that meant. I contributed in the thread about my experience with more frequent cam and rocker replacement due to issues beyond plugged/obstructed spraybars that I could attribute to the engine oil reformulations. I've seen the same things in other engines,.......
It should be said that overall, few engines (to date) have shown excessive cam & rocker wear but its certainly higher than before (prior to '03) and this was cause for some concern, given the situation. Many folks reading these threads both here and on Pelican seemed to have gotten overly concerned and I think this has been blown a bit out of perspective.
(I won't say "panic") There are MANY factors that influence wear in IC engines and oil formulation is just one. You are right, the majority of overall wear occurrs at startup and oil viscosity as well as chemistry plays a big role here. Like everything else we do; choosing oils is a compromise of sorts as we endeavor to ensure immediate lubrication at startup AND still provide adequate protection when the engine runs at maximum temperatures. Read what I wrote to GrantG above about thrust bearing wear.
At this juncture, I think its important to point out two things:
1) Engine oil temps are sampled at one place in these engines and there are other spots where temps are higher.
2) Average oil temps in an air-cooled engine can be a lot higher than a water-cooled one for the obvious reasons (I hope) and whats "good for the gander, isn't always good for the goose".
Air/Oil-cooled and water-cooled engines have their own particular oil viscosity needs based on usage and local temperatures also play a large role in choosing the correct oil for one's cars. Whats good for a Cayenne Turbo might not be the best for a 993TT and further, the correct choice oil for a 993 for someone living in Phoenix isn't going to be the same for someone living in Chicago,...
I won't comment on why Porsche recommends 0w-40 for everything but expediency and convenience might both be factors in that.
I've seen a LOT of 911 engines over the past 30+ years and my advice is based on that. I will not recommend the use of thin oils to my customers unless they live in a cold climate where the car will be operated during the winter months.
Now,........race engines are a whole 'nuther subject where thinner oils pay dividends in terms of HP and reduced operating temps. Long-term longevity is NOT part of this equation,.....
I hope this clarifies things a bit. Please feel free to call me anytime if you need further assistance.
Steve Weiner
In other words, I'm happy to listen to the advice of someone who is working day in, day out on Porsche motors. In other words, doing. I can read all the technical service bulletins in the world and read all the oil threads on pelican and rennlist (I have) and think that I know something, but in the end all I have is information, not knowledge.
Until I have Steve's experience to put the information in perspective (not gonna happen), I'm happy just to listen and comply. Thx Steve.