'95 993--Evil at the limit?
03-06-2007, 04:38 PM
#61
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: WNY
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Joel,
PAG changed the front & rear springs, shocks and swaybars three times between December 21, 1993 and February 10, 1994. Do you know if those changes were the first atttempt made at solving this problem or was PAG trying to fix something else?
PAG changed the front & rear springs, shocks and swaybars three times between December 21, 1993 and February 10, 1994. Do you know if those changes were the first atttempt made at solving this problem or was PAG trying to fix something else?
Sorry we didn't get to meet at Tech Tactics, I didn't know you were there.
03-06-2007, 05:21 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by TheOtherEric
Garth S -
Is it possible that 993.331.14x.xxx represent casting numbers, and not the finished part numbers? In the engineering world, castings often have different part numbers than finished parts, since they can be machined any number of ways. But I'd expect to see the 993.331.04x.xxx part numbers on your parts too. Otherwise there'd be no way to identify them according to my theory!
Is it possible that 993.331.14x.xxx represent casting numbers, and not the finished part numbers? In the engineering world, castings often have different part numbers than finished parts, since they can be machined any number of ways. But I'd expect to see the 993.331.04x.xxx part numbers on your parts too. Otherwise there'd be no way to identify them according to my theory!
Agreed that it was casting numbers from the items I reported, and that they can vary from part numbers ... as least in cases I've found on 928's: this could well be the case here .... but from what I've seen so far, I cannot even scrape enough together to hold a theory
. Seiously, if there is a variation between casting numbers ( which the parts bear) and part numbers ( which we purchase by), I've no idea what the correlation might be. Uncertainty whether this exists leaves some confusion.
Garth
03-06-2007, 11:30 PM
#63
Late 95 C2 experience
I'm an experienced driver, red group, driving my late 95 C2 through turn 2 at Summit Point, flat out. Just shifted into 3rd gear and the car starts this severe tail wagging - it was all I could do to hang onto the steering wheel. I managed to avoid spinning but went off the track and finally regained control. My car had a good track alignment, PSS-9's, RS sway bars. After that experience I read Joel's discussion about the different suspension pieces on the 96 and newer cars. I tried to buy used parts of the newer variety but never was able to find a complete set of the new stuff. I visually compared the same control arm of the old and new variety and the new variety appeared to be a slightly stronger part, a slightly heavier section. My thought is that under the heaviest track loading with race rubber, if you hit a bump, shifted, etc., this could start an oscillation caused by a momentary deformation (bending) of the suspension link setting up the violent tail wagging I mentioned. The slightly heavier section could be just strong enough to prevent this deformation from happening.
03-07-2007, 12:24 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by billpor930
...The slightly heavier section could be just strong enough to prevent this deformation from happening.
In the parallel thread, Chris Cervelli wrote that he supposes the newer links are essentially the same lengths, but that the bushings changed. Seems like a very good theory. (one of the lower a-arm bushings is designed to deflect, thus causing the KT effect)
03-07-2007, 09:20 AM
#66
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Mark in Baltimore
...Joel, I have never felt the back and forth that you describe with my Moton-equipped, late model build '95 (or even with my old PSS-9's but I was a slower driver two years ago). When I'm really pushing it at high speeds, the back end may come out, but it comes out in a fairly benign manner that can be easily checked with a bit of opposite lock. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in other '95's; I simply haven't felt it in my car and wonder if it can be attributed to updated pieces? I'm an okay driver who is working hard at taking my driving to the next level so I can run with the class-dominating 964 cups.
I have PSS-9, camber plates & RS swats with stock, original bushings control arms etc.) and while my car used to behave somewhat badly (I wouldn't say it was evil) with 17'', 225 & 255 wheels it now with Kumho 710s (18'' 245, 285) it feels very predictable on the limit and when the rear does come out, it is under control and comes out smooth and ios easy to control. Usually when getting over the limit, my car is doing more like a four wheel drift rather than sliding. (this was in bumpy Sebring, doing 2.26-2.28 sec lap times)
03-07-2007, 01:47 PM
#67
As a owner of a 95 993 that I plan to drive at DE events,this thread is both informative and confusing.This evil behavior does not seem to effect all cars and it is not clear to me how the fix that Joel recommends works.So what should some one do if they plan to track their cars.My car had pss9,trg sway bars and corner balanced.I was wondering if those who have experienced this problem share how there cars are set up so that others can make a informed decision about upgrading.
03-07-2007, 01:55 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by jkb157
As a owner of a 95 993 that I plan to drive at DE events,this thread is both informative and confusing.This evil behavior does not seem to effect all cars and it is not clear to me how the fix that Joel recommends works.So what should some one do if they plan to track their cars.My car had pss9,trg sway bars and corner balanced.I was wondering if those who have experienced this problem share how there cars are set up so that others can make a informed decision about upgrading.
Im not denying that there is a problem, but with an almost stock 95 suspension (specifically, M030 sways and shocks, eibach springs) Ive never experienced problems with a few track days. Im doing an AX this weekewnd and will be monitoring rear end stability.
Upgrading is always balanced with your budget. If its a safety issue - dont hesitate and upgrade. If its not safety issue, and you have discretionary income its totally your call. Sounds like your car is modified enough that you should at least try it before you throw money at a problem that may not exist FOR YOUR CAR AND YOUR DRIVING HABITS.
Last edited by tj90; 03-07-2007 at 02:32 PM.
03-07-2007, 06:49 PM
#70
Drifting
Originally Posted by tj90
I would say drive the car the way it is. If you have problems modify the suspension the way others had with success.
Im not denying that there is a problem, but with an almost stock 95 suspension (specifically, M030 sways and shocks, eibach springs) Ive never experienced problems with a few track days. Im doing an AX this weekewnd and will be monitoring rear end stability.
Upgrading is always balanced with your budget. If its a safety issue - dont hesitate and upgrade. If its not safety issue, and you have discretionary income its totally your call. Sounds like your car is modified enough that you should at least try it before you throw money at a problem that may not exist FOR YOUR CAR AND YOUR DRIVING HABITS.
Im not denying that there is a problem, but with an almost stock 95 suspension (specifically, M030 sways and shocks, eibach springs) Ive never experienced problems with a few track days. Im doing an AX this weekewnd and will be monitoring rear end stability.
Upgrading is always balanced with your budget. If its a safety issue - dont hesitate and upgrade. If its not safety issue, and you have discretionary income its totally your call. Sounds like your car is modified enough that you should at least try it before you throw money at a problem that may not exist FOR YOUR CAR AND YOUR DRIVING HABITS.
