Crownvic

Hi Guys,

After an 5000 mile quest for a TT I've climbed down my tree. Of all those I saw only one was a nice car in good shape - even if not a CreamPuff by any measure.

Furthermore, after posting many threads here, I had concluded erroneously that I'd prefer a TT to a RWD normally aspirated 993. Test driving a number of TTs brought me to realize that these are entirely different beasts from a traditional Porsche. Just like Tony Callas, who kindly did a PPI for me, I grew up as a kid in a 356 as he did also, and caught the P-car virus at a young age. However, the wonderful qualities of nimbleness and intuitive handling that are so intrinsic to traditional Porsche's were in my view lacking in the 993TT.

What I also noted was that the wonderful rumble I remember and still relish, which reminds me of the earlier street Porsches as well as the 904 we were allowed to wallow over and paw while off the racetrack at Montlhery near Paris (back then you could talk to the drivers and touch their cars!) seems to be more authentic in the 993 models preceding the hydraulic lifters which move the torque curve while changing the car's character.

So I guess this pretty much restricts my interest to a single year model: a 1995 993, preferably in C2 coupe form. I am also seeking a higher mileage car to better enjoy tossing it around curves with less worry about gravel rash or bottoming out the suspension. If you know of a good clean unit in the low to mid twenties at just above 100k miles - my PMs are if full operation.

I'd avoid the C4 as its handling characteristics are way too different from a C2 - different strokes for different folks. However, I wonder if a widebody would be less nimble handling, I had read that in a French Porsche Magazine a few years ago. I also know that they are more desirable to others, is it just for the cool looks, or for faster straight line acceleration with wider rubber?

Finally, is the Tiptronic an acceptable tranny for roadracing? I can pretty much drive anything, being used to tearing up the Alps in a Police Pursuit Crownvic (notice my handle?) - so while I'd rather get the better tranny I'm fairly tolerant of operator handicaps, and even some due to chassis conception. Given a choice, it would be nice to know which way to lean. The car would be used 50% in heavy city traffic and 50% on lively country roads.

Thanks for your vote!

WIDE: YES / NO

Tiptronic: YES / NO

Vic

Dan V

When you wrote "hydraulic lifters" did you actually mean "Varioram"?

I vote WIDE: C2S YES if you don't mind paying extra $$ for the look.

Tiptronic: YES - heavy city traffic will be less punishing on you and the car!

cabrio993

All 993's have hydraulic lifters. The "Varioram" that was introduced in MY96 is an air induction concept to improved torque in the mid RPM range by changing the intake track lengths depending of RPMS, noy to be confused with "variocam" which varies the cam timing. "Variocam" became available on the 996 911.

So, this should help you to expand your search to all 993's from MY95 to MY98.

ceboyd

my tiptronic for roadracing has been just fine FWIW

jimbo3

Wide bodies S's weren't introduced until '96. For driving 50% in heavy city traffic, I'd go Tip. There are a few that use Tips for track and they report that it works pretty well. Tips usually sell for a discount vs the manual, too- around $3K to $4K less. Expect to pay a $8K to $10K premium for an "S".

-Jim

Peter R.

Err...no. There are a few pré varioram 3.8l's about (285 bhp, when the 3.6 was 272, MY 94 and 95). They've got non-hydro lifters IIRC.

Peter R.

Bull

For widebodies in the US, the C4S was available in '96, but the C2S came in '97.

Crownvic

Thanks Guys!

The Hydraulic lifter info I got from Tony Callas in Torrence, unless I'm remembering it wrong. He was telling me that this is one thing which did change the sound of the engines in the 993s. Also, gearing is said to be better for the pre-varioram cars? Not that the gearing changed, but that Porsche had prefected it with the 964s and didn't readjust the transmission gearing to better correspond to the new torque curve of the more recent 993s.

It is regarding the driving pleasure that I'd prefer a 1995, it is said to have a more pleasurable torque band even if the numbers look better and higher on the later engines. One thing I heard is that it was in order to comply with California emissions that Porsche switched to Varioram. Meaning that the non-varioram design is the original Porsche choice, the varioram being a concession to EPA bureaucrats?

Since the widebodies weren't around in 1995, I guess I'll pass on a widebody: I may wind up not liking it as per my prior quest for the perfect 993 - (for me) it wasn't the TT as I didn't like the 4WD "self-steering" that tranferred driving skill from "sticking the car to the road" into "sticking the butt to the seat".

Then again I may have to rething everything - if the Tiptronic is better mated to the later varioram engine, with better gearing, then any 993 from 1995 to 1998 would work? And then I could also look at C2S widebodies too.

Has anyone here had a chance to compare the gearing of a manual versus a tiptronic on a 993?

TIA

Vic

ceboyd

If a 993 6 speed has the LWF, it does much better in the straights and can pull away from me faster.. BUT I can pull out of the turns faster...


BUT if a 993 has the trans modified, all bets are off and they can pull out of turns just as fast or faster than me..


one thing I liked about the Tiptronic is that I never had to worry about missing a shift and throwing a rod



I can drive my Tiptronic faster around the track than a 95 993 (because I've driven mine and a 6speed back to back and see better lap times in my own car) ...mainly because I'm obviously not as gifted with the shifting.. and still learning the heel-toe thing..


I can match lap times with a comparable driver... and have passed lesser experienced drivers in 993s often (and even in GT3s, etc.)

Basicly, I did not see my tiptronic as any hinderance on the track.

AND.. ON one track in particular, I could go faster than my stick counter part probably because of all the shifting the stick counterpart has to do.


...I'm not sure if any of this helps you or not though...

Bill Verburg

Wide no!
tip no!

all street 993s have hydraulic lifters oem, there was no widebody till '96, they could have been called turbo look as in previous models. More weight, more understeer, worse aero is their essence.

the gearing in the 90's, especially on US cars was increasingly oriented to fuel economy, 964s weren't too bad, RoW 993 aren't too bad, US 993 is awfull.

cabrio993

You statement may be true for ROW but not for the US market. Maybe in Europe you got some 3.8l's 993's. But here in the U.S. IIRC all 993's came with hydraulic lifters.

urban_alchemist

Why don't you set up a poll listing all permutations?

1. WB/6Sp
2. WB/Tip
3. NB/6Sp
4. NB/Tip

and of course,

5. TT/6Sp

Crownvic

Hi Bill,

So widebody it will be NOT.

However, Chris says some weighty stuff making me think that maybe the gearing of the tiptronic isn't nearly as bad as that of the manual - especially if it is the same unit as sold in Europe where mushy automatics, ever more so on a Porsche, would be violently rejected.

Does anyone know if the tiptronic 4-speed's gearing is the same as in Europe?

Also, what is it like in "manual mode"?

Thx

Vic

ceboyd

I can't imagine the euro 4-speed 96 tiptronic is any different in Europe than in USA

...it did a great job learning my driving style and shifting hard and fast..

There is a trick to driving a tip on the track though (it's been discussed here in other threads) to get optimum use from it and get it to shift when you want (basicly you have to pre-shift before you need it to account for the few second delay in signal to shift.. but once you get the timing right, it's a beautiful thing!)

Crownvic

Hiya City Bartender,

Thanks for the taste of your urbane chemistry, but there may be some gasoline in that ethanol you guys sip on.

As per your question / statement, this thread had no intention of sorting out which car is superior or creating a pecking order of the most desirable configuration. Each has its virtues, it is a matter of fit. So while personal preferences are to be respected, I was just asking fellow Rennlisters which specs would best correspond to the particular handling requirements of roadracing as well as mixed driving conditions.

I see from your signature that you have already voiced your own choice and put your money in action too. While I find impressive the boost surge of a TT, I've known better thrill rides - like the NASA ride at Orlando Epcot.

The TT felt to me like a rocket driven steamroller mysteriously glued to the road by metaphysical gravity. Amazing indeed, but not what I happen to enjoy in a car. I like fencing at the edge, and the TT moves that edge way too far beyond normal driving physics to be as fully enjoyable as a more nervous or "twitchy" car.

While the wide body 6-speed TT is indeed King of the Road, classic Porsches are know for being driver cars and not road dominators. Not that I have anything against Royalty (at least not in your neck of the woods) I'd rather steer clear of Garage Queens too. Let's remember that Porsche's emanated form the social concept of a "People's Car" of which the 993 is the ultimate sporting evolution. Those of us stuck in the time warp of the 993 series have realized that some of this heritage is possibly since lost beyond recovery, becoming bourgeois and thus denying its very unadorned and purist sporting roots.

So to end a long winded reply, I shall pass.