Do you shift into neutral while waiting at stop lights?
12-17-2005, 11:00 PM
#76
Nordschleife Master
Bagger,
I doubt that you will find "matching revs" in the Porsche manual either, so don't hold your breath waiting for a car manufacturer telling you ways to improve your driving skill.
I'm half way with you... I think its foolish to go into neutral way before the stop, and not use the engine braking thats available. As a counter to the "that's what big reds are for", I say "that's what engine braking is for". Down-shifting when coming to a light is no big deal... if you properly match revs (and even easier on the gearbox if you double-clutch your downshifts). I don't normally down-shift unless I think I can time the light and want to be in the proper gear when it changes.
But putting it into neutral and releasing the clutch at6 a long stop will save your throw-out bearing. A bit easier on the clutch foot as well, but it doesn't do a blasted thing for clutch life.
I doubt that you will find "matching revs" in the Porsche manual either, so don't hold your breath waiting for a car manufacturer telling you ways to improve your driving skill.
I'm half way with you... I think its foolish to go into neutral way before the stop, and not use the engine braking thats available. As a counter to the "that's what big reds are for", I say "that's what engine braking is for". Down-shifting when coming to a light is no big deal... if you properly match revs (and even easier on the gearbox if you double-clutch your downshifts). I don't normally down-shift unless I think I can time the light and want to be in the proper gear when it changes.
But putting it into neutral and releasing the clutch at6 a long stop will save your throw-out bearing. A bit easier on the clutch foot as well, but it doesn't do a blasted thing for clutch life.
12-17-2005, 11:04 PM
#77
Burning Brakes
Soooo...... what's the cost of a throw out bearing? And installation? Compared to how many miles of driving?
Just curious since so many folks on this thread shift outa gear at lights and don't down shift.
Thanx in advance.
BAGGER
Just curious since so many folks on this thread shift outa gear at lights and don't down shift.
Thanx in advance.
BAGGER
12-18-2005, 02:06 AM
#78
Nordschleife Master
Bagger,
I was hoping someone with experience at this would answer your question... assuming it is a serious question. But I'll poke some numbers at you... a T.O. bearing is probably ~$200. Installation depends on labor rates and if your trans can be pulled without pulling the engine. In a C4S, you may have to pull the engine, which would be around ~$1200 or so. (just a guess)
Just so its clear, the T.O. bearing is "engaged" everytime you push in the clutch. When used for shifting, its use is simply momentary, with very little wear. But it is engaged all the time you are sitting at a stop. Three minutes of use at idle is the equivelent of many, many shifts, in terms of bearing wear.
There is simply no downside to using neutral at long stops... and a bit of upside.
I was hoping someone with experience at this would answer your question... assuming it is a serious question. But I'll poke some numbers at you... a T.O. bearing is probably ~$200. Installation depends on labor rates and if your trans can be pulled without pulling the engine. In a C4S, you may have to pull the engine, which would be around ~$1200 or so. (just a guess)
Just so its clear, the T.O. bearing is "engaged" everytime you push in the clutch. When used for shifting, its use is simply momentary, with very little wear. But it is engaged all the time you are sitting at a stop. Three minutes of use at idle is the equivelent of many, many shifts, in terms of bearing wear.
There is simply no downside to using neutral at long stops... and a bit of upside.
12-18-2005, 03:25 AM
#79
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Steve, good thread thus far and thanks for the old school tips I will try to employ in the future (my garage queen is hibernating now). 
I have always thought that Reverse is equivalent to Park on an Automatic transmission. I leave my 993 in reverse when parked for this reason (with e-brake engaged). Is this an OK practice? Does this wear out the clutch (should I leave it parked in my garage = level floor, in neutral with e-brake engaged)?
TIA!
12-18-2005, 03:30 AM
#80
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BTW, I too will try to enploy some engine breaking before going to neutral at an intersection and just apply my big reds while coming to a full stop. Don't use my e-brake unless it's an emergency, LOL! 
At times I just let it coast on neutral and then apply brakes as I get close to stop.
my 0.2 cents.
12-18-2005, 09:07 AM
#81
Burning Brakes
Steve... (whew...!) T.O. bearing replacement is pretty pricey. But, as the 2nd owner of a 25K car, I figure I have many shifts left.
BTW, I tho't that P-car trannys were pretty bullet proof as are the clutches?? Could I be mistaken?
I don't spend much time in S-n-G traffic anyway with my car. And, I think that down shifting (like up shifting) is a major part of the driving experience of a manual shifting sports car. If I wanted to coast to a stop .... or shift into neutral before stopping... and just use the brakes/engine braking..... I'd get a Tip tranny. This is the main reason I have a M5 with a 6 spd and not a SMG.
I think many of you are missing some of the experience of a manual shifter. I'm sure others may differ with my position.
BAGGER
BTW, I tho't that P-car trannys were pretty bullet proof as are the clutches?? Could I be mistaken?
I don't spend much time in S-n-G traffic anyway with my car. And, I think that down shifting (like up shifting) is a major part of the driving experience of a manual shifting sports car. If I wanted to coast to a stop .... or shift into neutral before stopping... and just use the brakes/engine braking..... I'd get a Tip tranny. This is the main reason I have a M5 with a 6 spd and not a SMG.
I think many of you are missing some of the experience of a manual shifter. I'm sure others may differ with my position.
BAGGER
12-18-2005, 10:28 AM
#82
Burning Brakes
Did a little research regarding the 'theme' of this thread on several other sites/message boards.
Seems the consensus of 'those that know' is to shift into neutral at a long light, but not necessarily in normal circumstances where the light is short/normal.
I reviewed my own habits and I will shift into neutral at a longish stop.... and if traffic is excessive. I didn't do this to save the release bearing or such, just to relieve the strain on my left leg.
I still downshift when entering a corner and when coming to a stop. I don't downshift into 1st gear however until I'm nearly stopped and the clutch is engaged. And, I don't engine brake in 1st gear.
Some of the fun of 'sporty driving' is in the sprit of the drive, I guess.
BAGGER
Seems the consensus of 'those that know' is to shift into neutral at a long light, but not necessarily in normal circumstances where the light is short/normal.
I reviewed my own habits and I will shift into neutral at a longish stop.... and if traffic is excessive. I didn't do this to save the release bearing or such, just to relieve the strain on my left leg.
I still downshift when entering a corner and when coming to a stop. I don't downshift into 1st gear however until I'm nearly stopped and the clutch is engaged. And, I don't engine brake in 1st gear.
Some of the fun of 'sporty driving' is in the sprit of the drive, I guess.
BAGGER
12-18-2005, 11:54 AM
#83
Nordschleife Master
Frank,
My opionion is that it makes little difference which gear you select (or neutral) when you're parked in your garage. None of this will have any affect whst-so-ever on clutch wear. My turbo has a blown clutch accumulator, so its darned close to impossible to put the clutch in until the engine is started... so I'm "forced" to park my car in neutral. Yes, I have the new clutch accumulator on order.
Bagger,
I think you make some good points about the "driving experience"... and I really think we're on the same page (or close to that) on how we drive our cars., except I don't normally downshift when coming to a stop. On your question of trans/clutch reliability... the trans is as bullet-proof as any modern production car (which is to say... very). The clutch components are of high quality, and subject to wear depending upon the skill of the driver. Some on this forum have gone well over 100k miles on the original clutch... and that is the sign of a very skilled driver.
I think the weakest link in the system may be the dual-mass flywheel, which tends to fail over time. There is really no "driver" remedy for this.. it either happens or doesn't. Many will use this failure as an opportunity to "upgrade" to a more performance oriented "light-weight" flywheel. There are many, many threads on this topic.
My opionion is that it makes little difference which gear you select (or neutral) when you're parked in your garage. None of this will have any affect whst-so-ever on clutch wear. My turbo has a blown clutch accumulator, so its darned close to impossible to put the clutch in until the engine is started... so I'm "forced" to park my car in neutral. Yes, I have the new clutch accumulator on order.
Bagger,
I think you make some good points about the "driving experience"... and I really think we're on the same page (or close to that) on how we drive our cars., except I don't normally downshift when coming to a stop. On your question of trans/clutch reliability... the trans is as bullet-proof as any modern production car (which is to say... very). The clutch components are of high quality, and subject to wear depending upon the skill of the driver. Some on this forum have gone well over 100k miles on the original clutch... and that is the sign of a very skilled driver.
I think the weakest link in the system may be the dual-mass flywheel, which tends to fail over time. There is really no "driver" remedy for this.. it either happens or doesn't. Many will use this failure as an opportunity to "upgrade" to a more performance oriented "light-weight" flywheel. There are many, many threads on this topic.
12-18-2005, 03:08 PM
#84
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I once heard Dan Gurney talk about a race at spa that he lost while leading...late in the race he said his clutch went out...the reason he thought it wore out early...at the start of the race he was forced to sit longer than expected before the green flag, he had the clutch depressed with car in gear ready for the green on the up hill starting grid...
I never leave my car in gear at a light...(even before I heard this)
I never leave my car in gear at a light...(even before I heard this)
12-18-2005, 03:49 PM
#85
Nordschleife Master
Sirbob,
Dan Gurney for President! However, unless he was slipping the clutch (a really bad idea) while sitting on the grid (and maybe that's what he was doing to hold the car still while uphill), there is no benefit to clutch wear for putting it in neutral. Just the throw-out bearing is saved.
Dan Gurney for President! However, unless he was slipping the clutch (a really bad idea) while sitting on the grid (and maybe that's what he was doing to hold the car still while uphill), there is no benefit to clutch wear for putting it in neutral. Just the throw-out bearing is saved.
