Do you shift into neutral while waiting at stop lights?
12-10-2005, 11:41 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Yes. Another opportunity to enjoy the sound of the LWF.
12-11-2005, 01:35 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Tino,
My point is that if you are coming to a stop and go into neutral long before the stop, then you are using the brakes to slow down and not taking advantage of the engine braking. This simply wears the brakes out sooner than leaving it in gear and letting engine braking slow the car down. A clutchless move to neutral or a clutched move to neutral makes no real difference to clutch wear.
993James993,
It really not difficult to upshift or downshift without using the clutch at all. Its a bit tricky, and if not executed perfectly, a bit tough on the synchromesh. I had a 1974 911 and snapped the clutch cable. I drove it like that for about a week before I could fix it. Starting from a dead stop is pretty sloppy... you have to use the starter motor to get the car moving. Once past that, its not hard it all. Its simply a matter of taking all the strain out of the gear box (not accellerating or decellerating), and popping it in neutral. Then either raise the rpm for a lower gear (for a downshift) or let the rpm drop (for an upshift). When you have the correct RPM for the next gear, slight pressure on the lever, and it will "pop" in. Bingo. A little practise at this may raise your skill level for smooth shifting when using the clutch.
My point is that if you are coming to a stop and go into neutral long before the stop, then you are using the brakes to slow down and not taking advantage of the engine braking. This simply wears the brakes out sooner than leaving it in gear and letting engine braking slow the car down. A clutchless move to neutral or a clutched move to neutral makes no real difference to clutch wear.
993James993,
It really not difficult to upshift or downshift without using the clutch at all. Its a bit tricky, and if not executed perfectly, a bit tough on the synchromesh. I had a 1974 911 and snapped the clutch cable. I drove it like that for about a week before I could fix it. Starting from a dead stop is pretty sloppy... you have to use the starter motor to get the car moving. Once past that, its not hard it all. Its simply a matter of taking all the strain out of the gear box (not accellerating or decellerating), and popping it in neutral. Then either raise the rpm for a lower gear (for a downshift) or let the rpm drop (for an upshift). When you have the correct RPM for the next gear, slight pressure on the lever, and it will "pop" in. Bingo. A little practise at this may raise your skill level for smooth shifting when using the clutch.
12-12-2005, 12:18 AM
#36
This is what i was agreeing with; does anyone disagree with this post:?
tino
Originally Posted by leeham
I have a friend who has about 240K on the original clutch in his Saturn - not a lot like a 911, I know, but here's the trick: He shifts out of gear while coming up to a traffic light without depressing the clutch. He lets it get to about 1000 RPM then just pushes it out of gear. So, suppose I'm approaching a red light in 3rd and know I will have to stop. Do you think this technique would lengthen th 911's clutch life?
Always learning,
LeeH
Always learning,
LeeH
tino
12-12-2005, 02:14 AM
#37
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Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I agree with everything said so far... car in neutral at lights...
Another angle on this I'm told is that in the case where some pr!ck rams you from behind, sitting in neutral saves the transmission... is that true?
Of course, the counter argument is that sitting in gear will make the car stall in an accident thereby making it harder to push into the intersection and potential danger...
Another angle on this I'm told is that in the case where some pr!ck rams you from behind, sitting in neutral saves the transmission... is that true?
Of course, the counter argument is that sitting in gear will make the car stall in an accident thereby making it harder to push into the intersection and potential danger...
12-12-2005, 11:05 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Ray Calvo
Almost always do - depends on the length of the light.
12-12-2005, 11:30 AM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Agree with the general consensus.
Stop n go traffic - 1st. gear engaged and 'modulate' the clutch as need be (plus nudge accelerator to prevent embarassing stalling.)
RED stop light -- whilst approaching the light -- whilst still in gear (e.g. 3rd. assuming rural/built-up area) but having reduced pressure on the accel -- i.e. not totally coasting but just 'managing your energy and distance to go' -- LOOK at the color of the OTHER (perpendicular) traffic light and 'see' if you can see if it's at yellow or green (preferably yellow). Then try and time it so that by the time IT turns red (for them) and GREEN for YOU ...than all you have to do is add additional pressure on the accel. to go thru' the intersection -- NO clutch action required !!!
If approaching RED light and you KNOW you have to stop -- use engine braking to bring you CLOSE to the stop - then just before you know the engine is gonna conk out -- foot down on the clutch and put her into neutral -- foot off clutch totally - use foot-brake to bring you to a complete stop then foot off foot-brake and use emergency brake. In THAT way -- there's NO chance of any 'distraction' causing u to (inadvertantly) lift your foot off the brake pedal and 'bump' the dude in front.
Seconds before you know the light is gonna go green -- clutch-in, into 5th gear then move gear lever into 1st. (thus saving the 1st.-gear-syncho!) -- right hand/thumb on release-button of emergency-brake -- right foot on accel -- bringing revs to about 1100 or so from idle.
GREEN -- left foot off clutch until she starts to bite whilst adding accel and releasing emergency brake all at the same time. (You CAN juggle three ***** you know! ...it just takes practice!)
That's the way I learned in Ireland !
G.
Stop n go traffic - 1st. gear engaged and 'modulate' the clutch as need be (plus nudge accelerator to prevent embarassing stalling.)
RED stop light -- whilst approaching the light -- whilst still in gear (e.g. 3rd. assuming rural/built-up area) but having reduced pressure on the accel -- i.e. not totally coasting but just 'managing your energy and distance to go' -- LOOK at the color of the OTHER (perpendicular) traffic light and 'see' if you can see if it's at yellow or green (preferably yellow). Then try and time it so that by the time IT turns red (for them) and GREEN for YOU ...than all you have to do is add additional pressure on the accel. to go thru' the intersection -- NO clutch action required !!!
If approaching RED light and you KNOW you have to stop -- use engine braking to bring you CLOSE to the stop - then just before you know the engine is gonna conk out -- foot down on the clutch and put her into neutral -- foot off clutch totally - use foot-brake to bring you to a complete stop then foot off foot-brake and use emergency brake. In THAT way -- there's NO chance of any 'distraction' causing u to (inadvertantly) lift your foot off the brake pedal and 'bump' the dude in front.
Seconds before you know the light is gonna go green -- clutch-in, into 5th gear then move gear lever into 1st. (thus saving the 1st.-gear-syncho!) -- right hand/thumb on release-button of emergency-brake -- right foot on accel -- bringing revs to about 1100 or so from idle.
GREEN -- left foot off clutch until she starts to bite whilst adding accel and releasing emergency brake all at the same time. (You CAN juggle three ***** you know! ...it just takes practice!)
That's the way I learned in Ireland !
G.
12-12-2005, 01:46 PM
#40
Drifting
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I am with the majority here....heavy traffic/ stop go....or at a light/intersection where I know it is a short wait...foot on clutch and in gear....anything longer than 15/20 secs I am usually out of gear and foot off clutch. I have never used the 5th to first route but sometimes use 2 to 1st...but after reading this thread will protect my 2nd gear syncro from here on. Quite often out of gear and coast/brake to stop rather than use clutch to slow with. A very good racer once said....use a clutch to slow down...no way...thats what brakes are for....anyway, replacing brakes n rotirs is way easier than doing a clutch!!!
12-12-2005, 01:57 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
David,
I think you are misunderstanding... don't downshift to slow down... that can induce a bit of clutch wear (unless you are very good at rev-matching)... but allow the engine braking to slow you down rather than prematurely popping into neutral and inducing more brake wear. Remember, it is clutch engagement with mis-matched revs that causes the clutch to wear. If you are very good at rev-matching (heel-n-toe on downshifts, slight pause on upshifts), your clutch is doing nothing, and can last almost forever. Rev matching is impossible, of course, when starting from a dead stop, and that's where most of the clutch wear occurs on a well-driven car.
Here's another bit of mythology that should be put to rest: resting your hand lightly on the gearshift **** can lead to some premature transmission wear. This may be true of front-engine, rear drive cars with no linkage to the transmission: ie, the gear lever goes into the gearbox and directly changes the gears (Mustangs, Corvettes, Vipers, etc). On cars like ours, there is so much "monkey-motion" linkage that there is no way you can affect the transmission wear by lightly resting your hand on the ****. BTW, I don't rest my hand on the **** because I'm an old-timer, and habits die hard.
I think you are misunderstanding... don't downshift to slow down... that can induce a bit of clutch wear (unless you are very good at rev-matching)... but allow the engine braking to slow you down rather than prematurely popping into neutral and inducing more brake wear. Remember, it is clutch engagement with mis-matched revs that causes the clutch to wear. If you are very good at rev-matching (heel-n-toe on downshifts, slight pause on upshifts), your clutch is doing nothing, and can last almost forever. Rev matching is impossible, of course, when starting from a dead stop, and that's where most of the clutch wear occurs on a well-driven car.
Here's another bit of mythology that should be put to rest: resting your hand lightly on the gearshift **** can lead to some premature transmission wear. This may be true of front-engine, rear drive cars with no linkage to the transmission: ie, the gear lever goes into the gearbox and directly changes the gears (Mustangs, Corvettes, Vipers, etc). On cars like ours, there is so much "monkey-motion" linkage that there is no way you can affect the transmission wear by lightly resting your hand on the ****. BTW, I don't rest my hand on the **** because I'm an old-timer, and habits die hard.
12-12-2005, 02:30 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by ca993twin
... but allow the engine braking to slow you down rather than prematurely popping into neutral and inducing more brake wear.
12-12-2005, 03:00 PM
#44
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Steve,
Perhaps we differ on the meaning of lugging. If you leave the car in gear and roll to a stop without ever pushing in the clutch, the car will start "bucking" at some point as the revs get lower. To me, that is what I am calling lugging.
Perhaps we differ on the meaning of lugging. If you leave the car in gear and roll to a stop without ever pushing in the clutch, the car will start "bucking" at some point as the revs get lower. To me, that is what I am calling lugging.
12-12-2005, 03:21 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Kelly,
Ahhhh. yes. semantics. Clearly, you don't want to stall the poor engine as you roll to a stop. At that point you are going so slowly that using the brakes doesn't really significantly affect wear. I'll bet we drive the same... just using different terms to describe what we are doing. Glad you cleared that one up.
Ahhhh. yes. semantics. Clearly, you don't want to stall the poor engine as you roll to a stop. At that point you are going so slowly that using the brakes doesn't really significantly affect wear. I'll bet we drive the same... just using different terms to describe what we are doing. Glad you cleared that one up.