mborkow

oh please. i wouldn't feel any better about getting bufu'ed by a hummer in a bimmer than i would in my p-car

FGL28

SO Texas how do you justify buying and owning a 997? A car based on a 60's designed chassis? Or are front engined cars, designed waaaaaayyyy before 1960s,safer than the 1960s design that has proven time after time that it is a safe design?

texas911

The 997 chassis in not based on the 993 or any previous air-cooled 911 chassis.

I have to admit I let my kids ride with me in the 993 as well as the 997. And I'll admit that there is a passionate following of the 993, that's the last time I'll questoin anything about the 993 on this board, that's for sure.

Jagbuff

Living in the land of SUVs outnumber cars (Texas), and having a 3 and 6 yr old i have the same concerns.

I know that we all love our cars, but let's get real and not forget the basic laws of physics. Sure the Porsche is more nimble and better at crash avoidance than most SUV, but then you can make the same argument for letting your kid ride behind you on a motorcycle. The real problem is passive safety, if you are in a sports car and get hit by an SUV you are SOL (something called momentum mborkon). Statics show it, you are 4 times as likely to get killed if you are in the car vs the SUV. Just look where the bumper of an SUV is in relation to the little back seats not a very comforting sight.

Bottom line, your wife is right, taking your kid for a ride in the P-car is less safe than the sedan. That said, you can't stop living and be over protective, I regularly take my two girls on short trips, they love the top down, swooping corners (reminds them of roller coaster rides), singing to the top of their voice to their favorite songs. It's a rare opportunity for us to do something that we all enjoy very much... It's a concious decision and a slghtly greater risk but also creates fond memories. For longer roadtrips the SUV is the weapon of choice in part because it is safer and more practical.. (no DVD player in the Porsche!)

ked

Jagbuff, "all politics are local", as the saying goes, and so, ultimately, are statistics. Generalizations about sedans & SUVs vs 993 Cab accidents are little more than a starting point for hypothesis. Empirical evidence in specific controlled tests & real world events bring us closer to the "truth". Frankly, I don't think your assertion (or even one's limited personal experience) is an adequate basis for decision-making regarding Porsche's (& other finely engineered autos) passive safety. Let's not overlook that US NHTSA safety regs guarantee nothing for anybody in the case of any specific accident, are MINIMUM standards & that some manufacturer's design & eng exceed those standards in some aspects. Generally, US car accident death rates having been going down ever since the start of statistic-keeping in the '30s, now seeming to have nearly bottomed-out. US driving are (statistically, vs similar examples, etc) the safest in the world. Amazing, isn't it?

However, living in a state where SUVs & trucks are as dense as in TX (not to mention the drivers), I must concur w/ mborkow, despite the painful imagery (doing my best to avoid analogies between safe driving & sex, since prophylactic techniques are more active than passive in nature).
I'm going for a drive...

Yabbadabbado

Had the same conversation, but mine is with an ex-wife so always fun. I have this video clip that I showed her and it kinda is good for a laugh. No it's not a 993 it's actually older made me feel better in my 95 cab, not to mention my 4 1/2 year old daughter just loves going for a ride in it than going in the BMW.

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/archive/index.php/f-67.html I believe it's #39

Top gear how to kill a 911. (49 meg file)

might help, if not good for a viewing.

DJF1

The problem with what you said is that you made a statement , not a question. All of us we are open to questioning things about our 993's. When you make a statement you have to be 100% sure that what you say its solid. You purely said that its a 60's car and Porsche in those days did not do any crash tests. Besides the fact that this is untrue ( about the crash tests), what you also have to realize that since the original design there have been many changes in the Porsche safety system. The safety system is not only the tub design, but everything from rigidity, materials used, suspension, the sheet metal etc. That combination has obviously improved in spades over the years.Besides the crash tests regulations that the 911 had to meet over the years, also what you have to realize is that at least the 911 design is one of the few chassis that has been in racing for decades. That fact alone should tell you many things about the safety of this car . I will give you an example which was a real life lesson from my accident. I was hit in the rear quarter with at least 80mph .Then the car in question grazed the whole side of my car... It was a very serious accident... Besides the fact that I actually walked out without a scratch, the remarkable thing for me was how well the actual chassis held up. The rear quarter sheet metal folded and the suspension arms snapped, along with the bottom of the shock. The dricers door was grazed and the front left fender is pankaked... What is really remarkable is that the actual tub seems to be untouched and still straight!!! As I was told by Pro's in the field, this is by design from Porsche , the sheet metal and suspension acting as cramble zones to absorb the energy of the impact. After an impact like that you would think that the chassis is toast. I was amazed that it did not bend in any other place. Its only sheet metal damage! The roof line, door gaps etc, are completely unharmed with only the affected area crambling from the impact.
These real life lessons prove the safety of the 911 design and the thought that has gone over the years to make this car so safe.

So please do question the 993 but please refrain from making statements that you are not 100% sure that they are true.

I attach one caption picture from the accident. Notice on the left the wheel of the car that hit me and the angle of my car....

texas911

Now who's misquoting. I said its alien compared to today. The operative word being COMPARED. Where did I say that the 911 wasn't crash tested?

I love my 993 but I'm not putting it on a pedestal so high as to think that its as safe as a modern day car. Why do you think Porsche had to make the 996/7 bigger? As far as you're racing anecdote, that's great that you came away without a scratch, but I'm sure you had a helmet, harness and all kinds of safety equipment, jimbone asked about safety for his child. Plus his a cab.

JJJMCD

Despite widespread misconceptions to the contrary, size is not necessarily positively correlated with crash safety. The most important factor is the car's ability to absorb an impact within the "crumple zones", while maintaining the structural integrity of the passenger compartment. There are many large cars that have poor crash test ratings because the passenger compartments are weak, allowing them to deform in an accident and injure the occupants.

The fact is that the 993 (and previous 911s, as well) have considerably stiffer passenger compartment structures than most other cars and their crumple zones are engineered to absorb impacts. As a result, 993s have excellent crash test results. See: http://www.crashtest.com/porsche/index.htm (as you all know, the only Porsche sold from 1994 to 1998 was the 993) - click on the "injuries" box to see the source of their data.

It's also worth pointing out, from a safety perspective, that the 993 has ABS and two airbags.

Regards,

John

mborkow

first, i do not appreciate the name calling. i never called you a name so i am not sure why you are resorting to something so immature. second, do you think that my buddy who drives a bmw 3 series is really any safer than i am if a hummer h2 smacks him in rear?

lowblow

Wow, very heated discussions. I'm glad my wife loves motorcycles and even rides her own. Do we take our 4 year old on the bikes, No. But as was said before, you can't live in constant fear of what "might" happen.

My opinion falls in the group that says we are better for the bonding and positive feelings/ experiences that our cars give us and our children.

Does your wife drive the car?. I would think that if she did she would understand why it's a special vehicle. 993's are intoxicating. Like the Harley guys say..."If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand!"

Good luck bringing her back from the dark side.

Mike

Michael_Philippi

JimBone:

Here is a real world example. I have a 98 Cab, two weeks ago, I was on my way to an auto cross event to check it out. I am on the freeway when I have to slow up for traffic. I got rear-ended by a Chevy Suburban. (For reasons not relevant, I believe this was deliberate and then the bast**d left the scene). Impact speed difference was about 20 mph. I slowed to about 50 and he was going about 70. Damage to my car is limited to cracked paint on the bumper cover and a small hole in the bumper cover. (I caught up to the SOB (Yes, he is still walking)) Damage to the front of the Suburban is a bent front bumper and twisted bumper support.

Now, this is not a high speed impact, or a situation where I was at a standstill, but the car held up very well, considering the difference in mass.

No amount of logic will overcome an irrational fear. I understand about the first time parent bit. In an effort to balance out the safety concerns of small vs. large, perhaps you should have your wife review some of the recent insurance institute information showing the increase in serious injuries suffered by occupants of large SUVs.

Good luck and enjoy the car!

Michael

mborkow

you are really reaching on that one...and my guess is you know it. there is a big difference between me saying "oh please" and calling someone a dumb ***. if you don't think so try them both out in the office some time and see which one lands you in HR's office

ked

ok, now that some level of decorum has almost been re-established (plus some great case studies & database references), EVERYBODY go for a relaxing yet focused drive (& invite the wife?). be safe.

mborkow

hey, i am all for a vigorous discussion or even an argument and it is fine with me if friends disagree at times...i am just not down with all this name calling; it seems so unnecessary and rarely adds to the debate.