more HP for the 3.6
05-22-2003, 12:39 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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more HP for the 3.6
Does anyone have any practical experience with legitimate horsepower upgrades? I have a 1995 993 C4 with 272 hp from factory. I also have a 1995 BMW M3 that arrived from factory with 240hp. I have since upgraded to 295hp with $3000 worth of mods. Euro HFM, injectors,cams and a chip. This is all from a 3.0 and drivability has not been affected. How can I attain 50hp from the 3.6? I participate in track events, particularly solo time trials. I am looking for more torque coming out of the corners. oh, my friends 2001 996 C4 pulls on my 993. I was very impressed with the 996 on the track, but the looks just don't do it for me.
thanks
Al
thanks
Al
05-22-2003, 01:12 PM
#2
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There aren't many cheap HP gains available, but search the archives for all the different options. There have been alot of previous discussions and much detailed discussion and experience.
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05-22-2003, 01:16 PM
#3
Drifting
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Ava
apart from searching the archives for HP, look for ROW gearing - all the US 993 guys swear by it.
Also, what is you budget for mods? Judging by what you have done with your BMW, you are not shy about cams, injectors etc.
TO be frank, these are the 'real' ways to make more HP/litre.
apart from searching the archives for HP, look for ROW gearing - all the US 993 guys swear by it.
Also, what is you budget for mods? Judging by what you have done with your BMW, you are not shy about cams, injectors etc.
TO be frank, these are the 'real' ways to make more HP/litre.
05-22-2003, 01:28 PM
#4
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I agree with the above. You're not going to get anywhere near a happy and reliable 50 hp gain with bolt-ons, although the '95 993 is a bit more "tunable" with bolt-ons than the '96. You can decide whether you want to go inside for greater gains at greater expense, or improve breathing and get a newly mapped chip for less money and hp gain.
05-22-2003, 01:30 PM
#5
ava, with all due respect, I think that hp is just part of the equation. Having a balanced, responsive car is more desirable that raw hp, imho.
If I had 3K to spend on mods, I'd do things like suspension over hp mods.
If I had 3K to spend on mods, I'd do things like suspension over hp mods.
05-22-2003, 01:43 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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Jeff:
Easy for you to say, you have more hp than our NA cars with your keys out of the ignition...
Ava:
Do a search on "Weiner" and "chip". Steve's chip does a good job at delivering torque when you need it, earlier. Don't worry too much about HP. A good suspension to get you out of the turns and a flatter torque curve will do wonders (probably in that order, if I were you).
Easy for you to say, you have more hp than our NA cars with your keys out of the ignition...
Ava:
Do a search on "Weiner" and "chip". Steve's chip does a good job at delivering torque when you need it, earlier. Don't worry too much about HP. A good suspension to get you out of the turns and a flatter torque curve will do wonders (probably in that order, if I were you).
05-22-2003, 02:22 PM
#7
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As others have said, there are no cheap ways to get HP on the 993 motor. Here are a few ideas that you will probably hear about for more grunt out of the corners, in their order of expense:
Take some weight out of the car, perhaps some weight off of you (I am serious here). THis is the cheapest way I know of to take 10 to 50 pounds out of the car...assuming you have some weight to lose as I do.
Rennsport Portland, OR sells a chip good for about 15HP, the chip is under $1,000.
Install two racing seats will save you about 50+ pounds net. A loss of 50 pounds will not make your car a rocket ship, but every little bit helps. Seats such as the Sparco EVO seats will allow you to drive the car better, and the cost is under $2,000. Of course as soon as you install a roll bar the weight savings is lost
993 RS lightweight flywheel and clutch. This is sold by Rennlist sponsors, Steve Weiner at Rennsport in Portland, OR and Gert Carnewal, about $2,000 for the parts, + labor to install. They do not have to remove your tranny to install the LWF and clutch.
Ring and pinion..ANDIAL was selling a kit for about $1,600, figure about 20 hours of labor to install and set up: <a href="http://www.andial.com" target="_blank">http://www.andial.com</a> It is a 16% improvement over stock...all your gears are now 16% lower. You give up some top end for acceleration...for under $4,000 you be set.
Hire a driving instructor for one on one instruction at the track, example Cort Wagner can be gired for about $1,500 a day + expenses. Doug Baron, 4 time POC Tribute to LeMans winner is about $1,200 a day. Doug advertises his services in the POC Magazine. You could then attend one of the many "private track days" throughout the country, and bring you instructor. This little exercise will cost about $5,000 assuming more than 1 day of track time.
Guard Transmissions (the mfg) Limited Slip: You'll pay about $2,500 for a Guard clutch pack LSD with adjustable ramps, and figure 20 hours to install it...you'll be set for under $5,000. For about the same money you can install a Porsche Motorsports LSD. Note this is NOT the LSD that is in the stock 993 G-50 transmission. That LSD in Steve Weiners words, is a Piece of S$@*.
Add a super charger to your car, about $5,000 or so.
G-50/22 gear set, steel synchros, etc., Guard Transmissions sells all the gears and goodies need to convert your tranny to a G20/22 clone. You are probably looking to spend about $10,000 on this deal, parts and labor.
3.8 kit...of course your car may no longer be SMOG legal in most states, but maybe it will be OK in your state. The kit is about $10,000 from Gert, add in the labor to install, another $5,000.
There are of course other options...but these are the options that seem to work for lots off Rennlisters. I had better get back to work... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
Take some weight out of the car, perhaps some weight off of you (I am serious here). THis is the cheapest way I know of to take 10 to 50 pounds out of the car...assuming you have some weight to lose as I do.
Rennsport Portland, OR sells a chip good for about 15HP, the chip is under $1,000.
Install two racing seats will save you about 50+ pounds net. A loss of 50 pounds will not make your car a rocket ship, but every little bit helps. Seats such as the Sparco EVO seats will allow you to drive the car better, and the cost is under $2,000. Of course as soon as you install a roll bar the weight savings is lost
993 RS lightweight flywheel and clutch. This is sold by Rennlist sponsors, Steve Weiner at Rennsport in Portland, OR and Gert Carnewal, about $2,000 for the parts, + labor to install. They do not have to remove your tranny to install the LWF and clutch.
Ring and pinion..ANDIAL was selling a kit for about $1,600, figure about 20 hours of labor to install and set up: <a href="http://www.andial.com" target="_blank">http://www.andial.com</a> It is a 16% improvement over stock...all your gears are now 16% lower. You give up some top end for acceleration...for under $4,000 you be set.
Hire a driving instructor for one on one instruction at the track, example Cort Wagner can be gired for about $1,500 a day + expenses. Doug Baron, 4 time POC Tribute to LeMans winner is about $1,200 a day. Doug advertises his services in the POC Magazine. You could then attend one of the many "private track days" throughout the country, and bring you instructor. This little exercise will cost about $5,000 assuming more than 1 day of track time.
Guard Transmissions (the mfg) Limited Slip: You'll pay about $2,500 for a Guard clutch pack LSD with adjustable ramps, and figure 20 hours to install it...you'll be set for under $5,000. For about the same money you can install a Porsche Motorsports LSD. Note this is NOT the LSD that is in the stock 993 G-50 transmission. That LSD in Steve Weiners words, is a Piece of S$@*.
Add a super charger to your car, about $5,000 or so.
G-50/22 gear set, steel synchros, etc., Guard Transmissions sells all the gears and goodies need to convert your tranny to a G20/22 clone. You are probably looking to spend about $10,000 on this deal, parts and labor.
3.8 kit...of course your car may no longer be SMOG legal in most states, but maybe it will be OK in your state. The kit is about $10,000 from Gert, add in the labor to install, another $5,000.
There are of course other options...but these are the options that seem to work for lots off Rennlisters. I had better get back to work... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
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05-22-2003, 03:06 PM
#9
Cheapest way to "effectively" get more hp out of the 993 is weight reduction and regeared tranny as other have already indicated. Cheapest real hp gain would be from a supercharger. Do a search under "TPC supercharger" - there are a few Rennlisters who have installed this - Celcil, Jack, and a guy in Australia. You could also install a twin turbo kit from Protomotive for $10-15K. If this interests you contact SupperYellowFly on the 993TT board, he has this kit in a car he is selling and you might be able to work something out.
05-22-2003, 03:24 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
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thanks for everyone's suggestions. The Supercharger is totally out of the question for a track car. Not very efficient when introduced with heat for long periods of time. I guess I am just surprised at how inefficient this 3.6 runs compared to my 3.0. That's a entirely different discussion, however. The instructor suggestion is great advice that I received 3 years ago from a fellow racer, whom advised to have an instructor run your car and if you are not as fast work on your driving skills before adding horsepower . I am now as fast, if not faster than the instructors in my car at the track I run at most often. My car is setup up with the PSS9's and RS sway bars. I am very happy with this setup. I currently run kumho victoracers 255 rear and 225 front and was considering the new Michelin Cups, as I have heard they are stickier than Kumhos. Again, I thank you all for your advice and am realizing that increasing HP is not cost effective on the 3.6 platform. Removing some weight makes the most sense at this stage.
05-22-2003, 05:40 PM
#11
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Ava6603,
Great advice from the guys.
My budget was similar to yours and I did the following:
1). Steves Chip - $500 for a 94/95 model. Approx 15hp max gain, better torque spread. 20 minutes plug in job for the early cars.
2). Robins exhaust (RSR) + Motorsound airbox. Possibily 3hp gain (subjective). Costs around $400 all up and around 1 hour to fit both.
3). Suspension - your choice (sounds like you have this already).
4). Lighter seats (save around 30kg)
I already have ROW lower geared box as my car is ROW.
The 1994 993 has less clutter in the engine bay and seems to be strong and easily modified. The car runs cooler than some of my later model friends variram engines under load (more air circ?) and I believe that weight was only added to the base 1994 model from launch onwards. We weighed our cars up here (5 x 993 owners) a while ago and my 1993 built car with the earliest 272 engine was lightest (stock). From memory it was arouund 1390kg with fuel...
Good luck.
Cheers
Macca
1995 RS
1994 C2
Audi RS2
Great advice from the guys.
My budget was similar to yours and I did the following:
1). Steves Chip - $500 for a 94/95 model. Approx 15hp max gain, better torque spread. 20 minutes plug in job for the early cars.
2). Robins exhaust (RSR) + Motorsound airbox. Possibily 3hp gain (subjective). Costs around $400 all up and around 1 hour to fit both.
3). Suspension - your choice (sounds like you have this already).
4). Lighter seats (save around 30kg)
I already have ROW lower geared box as my car is ROW.
The 1994 993 has less clutter in the engine bay and seems to be strong and easily modified. The car runs cooler than some of my later model friends variram engines under load (more air circ?) and I believe that weight was only added to the base 1994 model from launch onwards. We weighed our cars up here (5 x 993 owners) a while ago and my 1993 built car with the earliest 272 engine was lightest (stock). From memory it was arouund 1390kg with fuel...
Good luck.
Cheers
Macca
1995 RS
1994 C2
Audi RS2
05-23-2003, 02:28 AM
#13
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ava6603:
<strong>...The Supercharger is totally out of the question for a track car. Not very efficient when introduced with heat for long periods of time...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">WRT supercharging you could consider an intercooler and 2nd oilcooler to help with the heat issue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ava6603:
<strong>...I guess I am just surprised at how inefficient this 3.6 runs compared to my 3.0....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually I think it's the exact opposite - the 993 motor is very efficient and that's why the usual easy hp tricks don't work and any gains are relatively costly. It's a testament to their engineering - or stubborness - when you consider how much power Porsche has been able to sqeeze out of an air-cooled motor, and even more impressive that the basic design of the motor has been relatively unchanged for so long. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>...The Supercharger is totally out of the question for a track car. Not very efficient when introduced with heat for long periods of time...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">WRT supercharging you could consider an intercooler and 2nd oilcooler to help with the heat issue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ava6603:
<strong>...I guess I am just surprised at how inefficient this 3.6 runs compared to my 3.0....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually I think it's the exact opposite - the 993 motor is very efficient and that's why the usual easy hp tricks don't work and any gains are relatively costly. It's a testament to their engineering - or stubborness - when you consider how much power Porsche has been able to sqeeze out of an air-cooled motor, and even more impressive that the basic design of the motor has been relatively unchanged for so long. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-23-2003, 10:32 AM
#14
Drifting
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David
maybe ava is referring to HP/litre. The 3.6 at 272 HP is making 75 hp/litre. I agree that a peak HP figure is a bit misleading anyway, as you could get more peak HP by revving to 8000!
The ways to make more TQ (keeping it N/A) will be cams, MoTeC, injectors, and stronger springs etc to take redline up to 8k, which for a 3.6 can be done for about £7k in the UK. See the 9M website at
<a href="http://www.9mracing.co.uk/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Shop&file=index&req=viewproduct&productid=25 37&quickview=1" target="_blank">http://www.9mracing.co.uk/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Shop&file=index&req=viewproduct&productid=25 37&quickview=1</a>
NO Alliliation BTW
maybe ava is referring to HP/litre. The 3.6 at 272 HP is making 75 hp/litre. I agree that a peak HP figure is a bit misleading anyway, as you could get more peak HP by revving to 8000!
The ways to make more TQ (keeping it N/A) will be cams, MoTeC, injectors, and stronger springs etc to take redline up to 8k, which for a 3.6 can be done for about £7k in the UK. See the 9M website at
<a href="http://www.9mracing.co.uk/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Shop&file=index&req=viewproduct&productid=25 37&quickview=1" target="_blank">http://www.9mracing.co.uk/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Shop&file=index&req=viewproduct&productid=25 37&quickview=1</a>
NO Alliliation BTW
