Suwipin

Hi all,

I'm wondering if I can get some advice from you guys on this topic:

What corrections should I make when I enter a corner too fast (let's say I realized it but it's too late )?

I can't lift or brake in the corner, and I'm wondering what I can do to avoid spinning myself and the car.

I did this once at Buttonwillow last month as I *forgot * to brake on one of the turns (Bus stop?) and I ended up entering a corner too fast and spun.

Thanx in advance,
pin

Robert Henriksen

Well, if you're not already on the outside edge of the pavement, I've been able to straighten the wheel (temporarily point towards the ditch), STAND on the brakes for as long as I have pavement, then turn back into the turn.

That's one option...

Dbltime

Avoid brain fade but we all get it once in a while ,, My answer in a fast situation such as a bus stop series of turns is that the balance of the car is paramount. You would have a better chance of making this too hot turn if you went back on the throttle just enough to even the car out and be exactly on the proper line. Entering a corner too fast and trying to trail brake or lift off the throttle while navigating will cause the spin.

I will be interested in hearing other responses.

Jeff 993TT

I spun at Turn 15 at Thunderhill because I missed my turn in by a few feet and consequently was going to fast for the arc that I was on.

I'm curious to see if you guys would recommend a _very_ brief trailing throttle oversteer at this point?

Jeff

Dbltime

My vote is "YES". So you induce a drift or get loose but stay on the black surface and made the turn. Throttle, proper amount, helps the gummies do their jobs. You scrubbed off speed, lost some lap time but completed the turn.

I will add, (before any else does) consider the sourse as this is my first year of track driving.

Robert Henriksen

I'm not familiar w. your track, but I have/can/do use a ~20-30% lift of the throttle to tighten my line (and stay on pavement) in turn 3 of TWS, **but only near track-out**. I've never considered attempting it where I'm so far gone that I'm going to run out of pavement halfway through a turn. Then I'd say point it straight, nail the brakes. You'd be surprised how a short burst of full brakes will take off enough speed that you can then turn back into the curve. You'll have COMPLETELY blown the turn, but you won't have grass & mud in the wheel wells, either And if you still go off, you'll be going off straight, and more slowly, which is always better than sideways/backwards (and faster)

Greg Fishman

That is what I would suggest also. But that can also make your back end very light if you are cornering fairly hard.
You can lift but do it gently and not 100%. Come of the throttle to about 20%. and hold on Don't pinch the turn, better to run out of room and put two tires off than go off backwards.
Best suggestion is to just stay well under your limits and not get in this situation until you are sure of how you would handle it. And keep your eyes where you want to be, not off the track looking at a ditch, or tirewall, because that is where you will end up.
Greg

Dbltime

Summit Point Spin

This concept would not apply to Watkins Glen

roger sf

I'll add one comment that is more applicable to track settings, but does carry over to street as well. I've seen people turn what would otherwise be a relatively uneventful "off" into a very damaging excursion because they tried to get too heroic with a save. I've seen two rollovers at Thunderhill in the last 6 months that occured because the driver tried to save the car when he could have just ridden off into the field.

For me, when I've overcooked it on track my initial thought after I know I have a problem is to evaluate why I shouldn't just ride the car off. The dirty car and black flag are preferable to the bent car and/or bent driver.

If this is occuring on street you need to slow down and get to the track. My wife and daughter are out there driving around.

Will

I'm with Roger; heading straight off is often preferable to trying to save it and ending up heading off the track sliding parallel to the track and rolling the car. Of course, heading straight off assumes there is a runoff area. One instructor suggested that, when learning a new track, a couple of laps should be taken to scout out the surrounding terrain, noticing runoff areas or places where heading off the track would be a problem. In other words, have a plan.

Will

B-Line

I'd like to recommend a book that I am in the progress of reading..
It's called GOING FASTER and you can find it on amazon.

I am going to assume by your post that your not talking about racing. Rather you are doing some high performance driving events. In this case, your first priority is not the fastest lap, rather safety and non carnage is the most important thing.
Having said that, if you go into a turn to fast to hit the APEX, forget about it. Use the rest of the arc in the corner as part of your straightway. Threshold brake until you have to turn, then trail brake until you have regained control of the car. There is no loss in pride if you completely miss a turn but brake the car in a successful contoled manuver. Pull out of the way of traffic and catch your breath. Then look to a corner worker to signal you when it's safe to get back on the pavement and begin again.
If you are able to slow the car quickly, hitting a late apex is safer than hitting an apex too early which can easily put you in the grass at the track out point. A late apex will put you inside of the track out. It's not fast, but it's safer in a bad situation.
You do not want to slam the brakes, that will unsettle the car, use nice even pressure on the way down, and if you need to keep slowing but also need to turn, ease off the pressure on the brake but continue to apply pressure. By this point you should have the car slowed down and made the radius of the turn smaller because you are carrying less speed.
A good rule of thumb is also, Recover, pause, correct..
--to sum up.. continue braking as long as you need to gain control. establish the control, then go for a late apex. Or depending on how fast your going and how much speed you need to scrub. BRAKE, BRAKE, Brake, you still need to get the weight distributed to your front tires. This will improve your traction by expaning the amount of rubber contacting the surface of the road. Don't lock the brakes, and keep your eyes and hands pointed where you want the car to be, which at this point should be a late apex because of the large arc caused by too much speed.

I hope this helps...And no, I'm not a race car driver, but I do do a lot of high performance driving and have been reading GOING FASTER and this is my understanding.
If you were in a RACE I would say that this is overly cautious, but your not racing, your trying to save your butt, and your car

Suwipin

Quote:

For me, when I've overcooked it on track my initial thought after I know I have a problem is to evaluate why I shouldn't just ride the car off. The dirty car and black flag are preferable to the bent car and/or bent driver.

I'll try to remember this when I get a brain fade and went into a corner too fast
Assuming that there is a runoff area of course.

Some people suggested that I should press the brake and the clutch at the same time in order to avoid the spin? Is this true?

Quote:

If this is occuring on street you need to slow down and get to the track. My wife and daughter are out there driving around.

I totally agree with you Roger. I guess I should imply in my post that I'm talking about driving on the track and not on the street.

Quote:

I'd like to recommend a book that I am in the progress of reading..
It's called GOING FASTER and you can find it on amazon.

Thanx for the recommendation B-Line. I've actually just received that book from Amazon and am planning of reading it next week. I have a 3 weeks off from work (mandatory shutdown) and I'll probably spend most of my time reading that book and driving around Northern California since my fiancee still has to work up to Christmas time.

Thanx Greg, Bill and Robert for the suggestions as well.

I hope to go to more driving events next year and learn more.

Cheers,
pin

roger sf

The brake and clutch are both depressed AFTER the spin has already started (hence "when you spin, both feet in".)

The brake is engaged to slow down the car as quickly as possible, thereby limiting the liklihood and severity of impacting a barrier or another car.

The clutch is depressed to minimize the liklihood that the engine stalls. If you end up in the middle of the track after your spin you're going to want to be able to safely move out of that spot as soon as you can. In my experience Porsche's don't like to start for about 30 seconds after a "clutch disengaged" spin (car's way of punishing me I think). I can tell you that it's not too comfortable sitting in the middle of te track waiting for the car to start while traffic bears down on you, even if the yellow is out.

Suwipin

That's exactly what happened to me, I was not able to start the car after I spun out and you are right: it was not comfortable at all sitting in the middle of the track, and not able to start my car ASAP and I was in the yellow group.

I'll remember to press both the brake and clutch when I spin out next time.

Hey ... I'm not planning of doing any spin out next time though

SundayDriver

For where you were (Bus Stop at BW) the best thing would have been to drive straight off the track. It is pretty clear there and you could easily slow and get back on track. If you were in a spot where that was not possible, you have to quickly evaluate your options. One approach I have often used is to widen the turn as much as possible and brake as hard as I can without spinning. In most cases (this is all on track experience) I have been able to take enough speed off to make the tight turn at the end with no more that two wheels off. It completely blows the corner, but you can stay on track that way. I have done this at turn 1 at Watkins Glen at turn 7 at Mid-Ohio - both will put you into a gravel trap if you go straight off.

If you are dealing with a situation with no space (guardrail or typical street situation) you have to decide on the best course. Do you try to force the turn and likely loose all control, spin the car with both feet in to control the direction, but not how you hit, or try to turn the car enough to control what you hit and at what angle.

Bottom line is that if you are truly going too fast for the turn, there is no technique that will always work. The earlier you realize you have made a mistake, the more likely you are to recover. Crashes and spins are usually the result of two or three mistakes without corrections.