Robert Henriksen

Another important benefit of hitting the brakes & locking up the wheels is that your car will then follow a more stable (linear?) trajectory. This is important for the herd of cars thundering up behind you - they'd like to know what way to dodge to avoid you. Cars spinning with the front wheels still rolling (and turned left or right) tend to make all sorts of interesting loops, feints, and dart about the track.

Suwipin

Hi Mark,

Thanx for your advice

It was nice to meet you in person at Buttonwillow last month. I hope to see you again sometime next year and hope that you can instruct me again

Oh can I get a ride in your Speed Racer, Mark? I'll bring a rope and a skateboard

Cheers,
pin

SundayDriver

Pin,

I enjoyed working with you and look forward to doing it again. Of course, you can have a ride . Are you doing Sears Point?

Suwipin

Mark,

I won't be going to Sears Point next week because I don't think that I'm ready yet for that track. I've been there several times but I was not driving on the track. It looks like there are not a lot of runoffs on that track so that's why I'm a bit hesitant to go to that track just yet.

Are you going to be there Mark? I might stop by at the track and say hi because I'm off the whole week next week and Sears Point is only 1.5 hours away from my house.

Thanx Mark
pin

DJ

Hey Pin,

You've gotten a lot of good advice so far, but I might have a little to add.

First, consider that just because you get into a corner at what *seems* to be too fast, that doesn't necessarily mean that you actually *are* too fast. It's possible that you have entered the corner at a speed that is faster than that with which you are comfortable, but the car may be wholly comfortable getting through the corner at that speed. Always remember RULE #1: "Don't Panic!" (and it's corollary: "If you find that you've already panicked, stop it immediately".)

Second, remember RULE #2: "There's more than one way to skin a cat". We all know that there is a theoretical "best" line through a corner, and the racing axiom, "slow in, fast out". The contrapositive is also true, "fast in, slow out". So, if there's a proper line for driving "slow in, fast out", there's also a line for "fast in, slow out". That's the line you need to use when you get into the corner too fast. Using the "slow in, fast out" line when you're going "fast in", will usually result in a spin.

When racing, you need to have some experience driving "off line". If the guy in front of you (whom you wish to pass) is driving on the line, the only way to get past him (other than punting) is to drive off line. You won't spend a lot of time at DE's (intentionally) driving off line, but you may have found yourself in a situation wherein you've executed a pass on someone toward the end of a straightaway, and you're now entering the corner from the middle of the track instead of from the edge where you'd like to be. In this situation, you can't enter the corner at the same speed that you normally would, because you're making a much tighter arc.

Third, what you do to fix a "too fast in" situation depends largely on when it is you discover that you're "too fast". The soonest you'd likely realize it is when you're on the brakes before turn in. If you realize it at this point, you can: 1) brake harder (assuming you aren't already at max braking), 2) stay on the brakes longer, or 3) trail-brake into the turn. If you've already gotten off the brakes, turned in, and realize that you're going to miss the apex, you've got to get a little creative. That's OK, because you've a got a few things still working in your favor 1) you're not going to panic (see RULE #1), 2) your sphincter muscles will involuntarily tighten, forcing much needed extra blood into your brain, allowing you the ability to still think clearly, and 3) time will expand and the next few seconds will seem like hours. At this point, you're likely off line, and RULE #3 states that: "Once you're off line, you're off line". You've already missed the apex, so don't try to fight the car back onto the line, or you'll spin for sure. So, since you can't use your normal line, you'll need a new one. This new line will likely be wider. RULE #4 is "When in doubt, let it out". Lifting gently--but not completely--off the throttle, keeping the car balanced, and widen your line as much a possible with a new arc that will take you just to the edge of the track.

As Mark wisely stated above, spins and off's are usually preceded by more than one mistake. The mistakes add up to cause the spin. Make one mistake (entering too fast), and all is not (necessarily) lost if you make the right corrections. Make the wrong correction, and now you've got two mistakes to try to fix, and time is running out. Three strikes, and you're off for sure. Your bus stop spin mistakes probably went like this: 1) too fast into the corner, 2) panic, 3) lift (completely or too abruptly) off the throttle 4) try to turn the car tighter to get back onto the line. You were doing OK until you got to #2. After that, it's all down hill.

Sears Point: Pin, if you're only an hour and a half away, you should definitely come, even if you don't drive. Just hang out, and try to mooch rides from some of the instructors. But if it's possible, drive. Sears may be a little more intimidating because there's more to hit if you go off, but going off is entirely up to you. Nobody goes from novice to expert all of a sudden. You work up to it in baby steps. There's no competition, and nothing pushing you to go faster than what you are comfortable with. Slow down, learn the line, get really smooth, and have fun. That's what it's all about.

Robert Henriksen

DJ,

(sniff) -- that was beautiful!

Martin S.

Not much to add after DJ's most excellent post. I would add one thing I learned from Rick White, chief driving instructor for the POC in SoCal to the effect, if you are going off, do every thing in your power to go off in a straight line. If you can remember, lift off the brakes just before the exit point to allow the suspension a moment to uncompress. The uncompressed suspension will be able take up some of the upcoming jolts on the suspension (springs/shocks) in contrast to riding it out on the suspension stops. Once this is done, you may wish to resume the both feet in drill.

I was in a 78SC a few weeks ago as an instructor and the driver went into a kink too fast, the car was not going to stay on track. He attempted to correct and what resulted was the car going sideways in the dirt on the passenger side (me) at some 70+ mph. I was saying my best prayers, please God, let us NOT catch an edge and invert the car, PLEASE. God was listening that day and we slid to a stop, dusty and wiser.

Last bit of advice, attend a Driving School such as Tracquest, Bondurant, Jim Russell. At Tracquest you will have the advantage of learning to drive in your car, not the case if you go the Bondurant or Jim Russell route. And has been said many times as the best advice ever, Keep the shiny side up!

B-Line

I have to disagree with Robert on one major point..
(sorry Robert)
Locking up the brakes is not a good thing regardless of trajectory.
Another important benefit of hitting the brakes & locking up the wheels is that your car will then follow a more stable (linear?) trajectory. This is important for the herd of cars thundering up behind you - they'd like to know what way to dodge to avoid you. Cars spinning with the front wheels still rolling (and turned left or right) tend to make all sorts of interesting loops, feints, and dart about the track.


whenever you lock up the brakes, you are reducing, not increasing, your stopping power. A locked brake has I think only about 80% of the cars stopping potential. Where as Threshold braking is bordering on 100%. So, as soon as the brakes lock up, you have actually decreased your stopping power by I think about 20%. Threshold yes, Trail brake, yes, Lock Up...NO NO NO...
just my opinion..

SundayDriver

Pin,

I will be at Sears - come by. Better yet, enter the event. If you find the track to be too tight (run off wise) simply drive where you are comfortable. It will still be a good experience.

One thing about Bus Stop is that I find it very deceiving -it looks far faster than it is.

B-Line

I have to disagree with Robert on one major point..
(sorry Robert)
Locking up the brakes is not a good thing regardless of trajectory.
whenever you lock up the brakes, you are reducing, not increasing, your stopping power. A locked brake has I think only about 80% of the cars stopping potential. Where as Threshold braking is bordering on 100%. So, as soon as the brakes lock up, you have actually decreased your stopping power by I think about 20%. Threshold yes, Trail brake, yes, Lock Up...NO NO NO...
just my opinion..

Greg Fishman

I disagree back
You are right that a locked tire has less braking force than you have when threshold braking. But if the car is out of control how do you modulate the brake pedal when you are spinning?
If you are spinning you should mash the brake as hard as you can and hold it there until you stop *completely*. The worst thing a person could do is try to modulate the brake and not use the max braking available.
That is how cars end up going back across the track and collecting someone or something.
Greg

Robert Henriksen

well, I agree with you 100% **as long as I'm still in control of the car**. Once the car's rotated past about 45 degrees, and the spin has begun, you're really a passenger, not a driver. Your main contribution at that point is to make the ride (trajectory) as consistent as possible.

SundayDriver

Greg is right on target. If you do not lock the brakes (or as close as you can get) the car will hook up at some point in the spin and dart off in some direction - making you very unpredictable. Locked brakes keep you going the same direction. I have done MANY spins and with locked brakes, I usually stay on the pavement. At that point, you can evaluate where you are pointed and release the brakes when you are almost stopped to roll off track (out of traffic) in a safe manner.

Robert Henriksen

I yield the floor to Mark's vastly greater experience at spinning

DJ

45 degrees? Nah, that's still save-able. That's not even considered sideways.