Bulletproof?
12-10-2001, 09:23 AM
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Bulletproof?
There have been numerous posts recently about Wiring Harness problems and now people are talking about Premature Valve Guide wear...then there's the regular Squeaking Windscreens and Clutch Slave Cylinder questions...then there's the poor headlights
the paint that chips too easily and the
dubious (or 'over sensitivity of the') oil level gauge.
And this on cars that are supposed to be "bulletproof".
I can't help thinking that if this had been an everyday GM item people would not still be using that term.
Is it just a case that with the benefit of a main dealer waranty and/or 1st/2nd owners with serious high incomes all problems have just been "brushed under the carpet".
and that these cars are not as good/reliable as we have been led to believe.
"The everyday supercar" - was it all hype?
Personally I love my Porsche, I can't think of anything I'd rather have (except maybe a newer one!!)It turns a 45min commute into one of lifes pleasures and always leaves a smile on my face. But I don't fancy recieving a bill for as much as another car!!!
As the mileage winds on I'm beginning to wonder - 2nd hand 993 or new Audi TT - I did do the right thing did'nt I. We are talking just a few cars here are'nt we?
Luke,
Black 993 UK.
the paint that chips too easily and the
dubious (or 'over sensitivity of the') oil level gauge.
And this on cars that are supposed to be "bulletproof".
I can't help thinking that if this had been an everyday GM item people would not still be using that term.
Is it just a case that with the benefit of a main dealer waranty and/or 1st/2nd owners with serious high incomes all problems have just been "brushed under the carpet".
and that these cars are not as good/reliable as we have been led to believe.
"The everyday supercar" - was it all hype?
Personally I love my Porsche, I can't think of anything I'd rather have (except maybe a newer one!!)It turns a 45min commute into one of lifes pleasures and always leaves a smile on my face. But I don't fancy recieving a bill for as much as another car!!!
As the mileage winds on I'm beginning to wonder - 2nd hand 993 or new Audi TT - I did do the right thing did'nt I. We are talking just a few cars here are'nt we?
Luke,
Black 993 UK.
12-10-2001, 10:29 AM
#2
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I hear what you're saying, and your question is sound, based on recent posts.
That said, these car's are pretty much bulletproof and are very friendly for daily and aggressive driving (my 95 993 is approaching 90k on original clutch, original valve guides, etc...). You really have to take the posts sometimes with a grain of salt, and that folks here talk about all issues. It's like a guy who works at customer service - nobody calls when everything is going smoothly, they only call when there's a problem. Maybe this is a lame analogy, but that's how I view some of the issues we discuss here. Don't freak out with what you read!
Comparing to other cars out there, and how much my 993 gives me, these cars ARE THE GREATEST!! Craftsmanship, quality and pure driving excitement - would you trade that in for a Toyota Camry??
That said, these car's are pretty much bulletproof and are very friendly for daily and aggressive driving (my 95 993 is approaching 90k on original clutch, original valve guides, etc...). You really have to take the posts sometimes with a grain of salt, and that folks here talk about all issues. It's like a guy who works at customer service - nobody calls when everything is going smoothly, they only call when there's a problem. Maybe this is a lame analogy, but that's how I view some of the issues we discuss here. Don't freak out with what you read!
Comparing to other cars out there, and how much my 993 gives me, these cars ARE THE GREATEST!! Craftsmanship, quality and pure driving excitement - would you trade that in for a Toyota Camry??
12-10-2001, 10:47 AM
#3
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Sorry, forgot one other point. I appreciate all info being posted here and it really helps me understand my car much better, but that doesn't mean all our cars are going to exhibit all symptoms listed on this board. Rennlist links Porsche people worldwide and the pool of knowledge and information available is positively amazing. Unless your seeing some problems with your car, don't worry too much. Some problems are very specific, only occuring to a handful of cars. Other problems (valve guides, etc..) occur on all cars (yes even toyotas and hondas).
993 is the end-product of 30 years of 911 air-cooled technology and innovation. The quality and craftsmanship is second-to-none, but mechanics is mechanics and things naturally wear out. If these cars were not bulletproof, surely we'd see less old 911's on the road than we currently see.
Ok, now I'm finished!
993 is the end-product of 30 years of 911 air-cooled technology and innovation. The quality and craftsmanship is second-to-none, but mechanics is mechanics and things naturally wear out. If these cars were not bulletproof, surely we'd see less old 911's on the road than we currently see.
Ok, now I'm finished!
12-10-2001, 11:05 AM
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Actually what's very nice about the "known" issues that the 993s have is that it leaves very little surprises for the owners or potential owners of these autos.
I drove a '92 BMW 850i six speed for quite some time. I visited a similar board at www.bimmer.org There you will find the 840i automatic folks who are not so much performance oriented as they are "spit and polish" types. There are the 850Csi owners who have the "M" version of the 8 Series (0-60 in 5.3secs) and the 850i six speed people who are "mod happy" trying to eeek out all they could get from their E31s. This board reminds me a little of that with the 993 Cab folks, 993TT people and the 993/C2/C4/S owners.
The 8 Series also had known problems that effect every model, much like the 993: DK motors, twisted power seat cable, OBC pixels going bad, etc.
It seems like with most autos, there is a handful of items that are "known" to be problems. Some brands have more of these than others. I think a reflection on quality in an auto is the consistency of the failed parts across the board. It's the inconsistency of items going bad in an auto that does not make me look favorably upon a brand. My Ford trucks would have just about everything and anything break on them. I learned to just not keep any Ford product past 55K miles.
Bulletproof? I don't know of any car that can claim that. Bulletproof compared to most other sports cars? With the 993 I am reserving judgement as I am fixing some of the known issues now (Slave Cylinder, door checks). In general though it is an "everyday exotic". I have not had to worry about A/C, Power steering, (major items). I can't imagine driving a Ferarri, Lotus, etc. every day. Heck, I don't even drive my 993 everyday, but I could if I wanted to without any problems.
I drove a '92 BMW 850i six speed for quite some time. I visited a similar board at www.bimmer.org There you will find the 840i automatic folks who are not so much performance oriented as they are "spit and polish" types. There are the 850Csi owners who have the "M" version of the 8 Series (0-60 in 5.3secs) and the 850i six speed people who are "mod happy" trying to eeek out all they could get from their E31s. This board reminds me a little of that with the 993 Cab folks, 993TT people and the 993/C2/C4/S owners.
The 8 Series also had known problems that effect every model, much like the 993: DK motors, twisted power seat cable, OBC pixels going bad, etc.
It seems like with most autos, there is a handful of items that are "known" to be problems. Some brands have more of these than others. I think a reflection on quality in an auto is the consistency of the failed parts across the board. It's the inconsistency of items going bad in an auto that does not make me look favorably upon a brand. My Ford trucks would have just about everything and anything break on them. I learned to just not keep any Ford product past 55K miles.
Bulletproof? I don't know of any car that can claim that. Bulletproof compared to most other sports cars? With the 993 I am reserving judgement as I am fixing some of the known issues now (Slave Cylinder, door checks). In general though it is an "everyday exotic". I have not had to worry about A/C, Power steering, (major items). I can't imagine driving a Ferarri, Lotus, etc. every day. Heck, I don't even drive my 993 everyday, but I could if I wanted to without any problems.
12-10-2001, 11:32 AM
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97 300 Mercedes inadvertently deployed the airbag while driving.
2001 CLK430 would not accept throttle while merging into high speed traffic, died, computer problem.
1997 993 coupe $2,000,000. worth of enjoyment in 33,000 miles.
2000 Ford Windstar (company van) 5 recalls, trans failure.
As cars go, Porsche builds a durable winner.
I watch these cars beat around race tracks day after day with very few failures.
2001 CLK430 would not accept throttle while merging into high speed traffic, died, computer problem.
1997 993 coupe $2,000,000. worth of enjoyment in 33,000 miles.
2000 Ford Windstar (company van) 5 recalls, trans failure.
As cars go, Porsche builds a durable winner.
I watch these cars beat around race tracks day after day with very few failures.
12-10-2001, 11:33 AM
#6
Luke,
I am surprised too, but I found the same thing years ago when I purchased my first Ducati. Folks said that it was just part of the ownership experience, or some other ridiculous reason why it was acceptable. The more research that I do into the history of the 911; I am finding the same thing. Some of the problems over every variation of the 911 are unbelievable.
Best regards,
Scott
I am surprised too, but I found the same thing years ago when I purchased my first Ducati. Folks said that it was just part of the ownership experience, or some other ridiculous reason why it was acceptable. The more research that I do into the history of the 911; I am finding the same thing. Some of the problems over every variation of the 911 are unbelievable.
Best regards,
Scott
12-10-2001, 12:02 PM
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Luke:
Good questions. I think Oleg and Sean are on to something. We (Rennlist Members) are a very small percentage or Porsche owners and, as such, are most likely, as a group, the most critical of the cars we love and the most conscientious when it comes to maintenance, upgrades and care. Given what we do with our cars – track days, autocross, club racing and daily aggressive street driving it is pretty amazing how durable these machines are. I agree that bulletproof is probably a tough standard to live up to, but from my personal experience, if you religiously perform proper maintenance, the cars seem to run like new for a very long time.
It is great that there is a board like this for all of us to share our experience. Without it, many of these problems would go unnoticed until it was too late. I am on my third used 993. Each one of them had different “problems,” but through this board I have been able to understand each problem and prioritize which were critical and which could wait.
So, are they bulletproof? Perhaps if you owned one from new and knew all of the problems to avoid, otherwise, they are just bullet resistant and require normal maintenance to keep them that way.
Hank
Good questions. I think Oleg and Sean are on to something. We (Rennlist Members) are a very small percentage or Porsche owners and, as such, are most likely, as a group, the most critical of the cars we love and the most conscientious when it comes to maintenance, upgrades and care. Given what we do with our cars – track days, autocross, club racing and daily aggressive street driving it is pretty amazing how durable these machines are. I agree that bulletproof is probably a tough standard to live up to, but from my personal experience, if you religiously perform proper maintenance, the cars seem to run like new for a very long time.
It is great that there is a board like this for all of us to share our experience. Without it, many of these problems would go unnoticed until it was too late. I am on my third used 993. Each one of them had different “problems,” but through this board I have been able to understand each problem and prioritize which were critical and which could wait.
So, are they bulletproof? Perhaps if you owned one from new and knew all of the problems to avoid, otherwise, they are just bullet resistant and require normal maintenance to keep them that way.
Hank
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12-10-2001, 12:31 PM
#8
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Wiring harness was '95 only. Phil UK found 16 cars with worn valve guides when doing upgrades, not necessarily problem wear down to the limit, unless he confirms this. If total UK 993 sales were 400 (just a guess), 16 out of 400 is 4%. Poor headlights and paint chip sensitivity are relative and subjective terms. Oil level gauge sensitivity is not true - see manual on how to check oil. Squeaking windscreen was annoying but fixable. Slave cylinder is a problem, but what % of total? Carbon buildup can be prevented with periodic Techron treatment. All the above just my experience at 66K mi. Read Forza magazine (Ferrari) for an idea of high maintenance costs, about double per mile of the 993.
12-10-2001, 12:49 PM
#9
Luke,
You are not alone in your thoughts. It seems that my ’95 993, after three years of ownership and about 25,000 miles, has spent more time in the shop than my ’93 Toyota 4X4, after nearly 10 years of ownership (purchased new in ’92) and 135,000 miles, and off-roading my truck is much more abusive than the few track days I’ve put on my 993! Sometimes my 993 has been in the shop three weeks at a time! I think there’s been one real “problem” on my truck, which was fixed by Toyota even though the truck was out of warranty; every thing else has been maintenance, and not much of that. Also, my 993 has depreciated more, percentage wise, in three years of ownership than my truck did in the first 8 years of ownership, even after purchasing my truck new, which gives you a big depreciation hit the first year or so.
That said, you won’t see me parting with my 993 anytime soon…
Tom
You are not alone in your thoughts. It seems that my ’95 993, after three years of ownership and about 25,000 miles, has spent more time in the shop than my ’93 Toyota 4X4, after nearly 10 years of ownership (purchased new in ’92) and 135,000 miles, and off-roading my truck is much more abusive than the few track days I’ve put on my 993! Sometimes my 993 has been in the shop three weeks at a time! I think there’s been one real “problem” on my truck, which was fixed by Toyota even though the truck was out of warranty; every thing else has been maintenance, and not much of that. Also, my 993 has depreciated more, percentage wise, in three years of ownership than my truck did in the first 8 years of ownership, even after purchasing my truck new, which gives you a big depreciation hit the first year or so.
That said, you won’t see me parting with my 993 anytime soon…
Tom
12-10-2001, 01:03 PM
#10
Luke -
I was having the SAME thoughts just yesterday. As I read this board, I'm amazed at how readily people accept the various, epxpensive, problems with their Porsche's. I'm particularly amazed at the general acceptance of the grossly premature (in my opinion) valve guide wear problem that have been discussed at length over the last week.
I bought my 993 in July and have thoroughly enjoyed driving it but.... I bought it because I wanted the superior Porsche engineering I'd heard so much about. I was surprised to find it drinking a quart of Mobil 1 every 1000 miles (it only had 10,800 miles on it..) and was apalled when several months into ownership it sprung a sizeable oil leak. Adding insult to injury, I spoke to 2 technicians at my local Porsche Dealer and they both gave me several reasons WHY my 993 would be leaking oil! Not one person said "we're sorry Mr. --- , your 98' Porsche shouldn't leak oil... Then they promptly advised me that my cars warranty had expired and the factory wouldn't cover the repair. I was disgusted.
They requested $75 to LOOK at the car and tell me WHERE it was leaking. They put dye in the oil and asked me to drive the car a few hundred miles. I did (actually autocrossed it that weekend
) They eventually said an oil filter had been installed improperly and graciously replaced it. Total cost: $231.00
My wife has a 99' Miata. It recently started leaking oil. The Mazda dealer apologized repeatedly, gave us a loaner vehicle, replaced the oil filter (the seal had cracked), changed the oil and detailed the car. Total cost: $29.00.
Several months ago a small tear developed in the Miata top. The car has 40k miles on it. The dealer apologized profusely, provided a loaner vehicle, replaced the top and the entire convertible mechanism. They had parts shipped in via overnight delivery and completed the job in a day. Total cost: $0. The car is NOT under warranty.
I owned a Ducati from 95-99 and EXPECTED it to have problems. After all, Italian engineering is legendary for all the opposite reasons that German engineering is so lauded! Despite being rung out repeatedly, subjected to over 15 track days, dynoed and drag raced, I never even experienced so much as a burned out light bulb! Perhaps I was just lucky. Sold it with 15,000 miles on it to a very happy buyer...
My 1993 Honda Accord has 138,000 miles on it. Other than a timing belt, spark plugs, a battery, 2 sets of brake pads, tires and oil changes every 3k miles it has never asked anything of me. It runs like a top, sounds like a sewing machine, and soldiers on loyally without complaint or need for expensive repaiir. It WON'T go 150mph, but I've redlined it on freeway ramps dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. It doesn't require ANY oil between scheduled changes and doesn't smoke. There is no doubt in my mind it will pass 180,000 miles without needing new valve guides. Did I mention that I routinely tow a trailer and dirt bikes with the Honda?
So what's the point of all this? I spent a LOT of money on a perfect 98' Cab with 5800 original miles on it. I expected EXCELLENCE. I drive hard and know that sometimes things break. What I didn't expect was the myriad of problems that are readily accepted, even EMBRACED by Porsche owners. I have no intention of selling my 993. But, if the valve guides go at 20, 30, or 50k miles, the car goes - PERIOD!
MC
I was having the SAME thoughts just yesterday. As I read this board, I'm amazed at how readily people accept the various, epxpensive, problems with their Porsche's. I'm particularly amazed at the general acceptance of the grossly premature (in my opinion) valve guide wear problem that have been discussed at length over the last week.
I bought my 993 in July and have thoroughly enjoyed driving it but.... I bought it because I wanted the superior Porsche engineering I'd heard so much about. I was surprised to find it drinking a quart of Mobil 1 every 1000 miles (it only had 10,800 miles on it..) and was apalled when several months into ownership it sprung a sizeable oil leak. Adding insult to injury, I spoke to 2 technicians at my local Porsche Dealer and they both gave me several reasons WHY my 993 would be leaking oil! Not one person said "we're sorry Mr. --- , your 98' Porsche shouldn't leak oil... Then they promptly advised me that my cars warranty had expired and the factory wouldn't cover the repair. I was disgusted.
They requested $75 to LOOK at the car and tell me WHERE it was leaking. They put dye in the oil and asked me to drive the car a few hundred miles. I did (actually autocrossed it that weekend
) They eventually said an oil filter had been installed improperly and graciously replaced it. Total cost: $231.00My wife has a 99' Miata. It recently started leaking oil. The Mazda dealer apologized repeatedly, gave us a loaner vehicle, replaced the oil filter (the seal had cracked), changed the oil and detailed the car. Total cost: $29.00.
Several months ago a small tear developed in the Miata top. The car has 40k miles on it. The dealer apologized profusely, provided a loaner vehicle, replaced the top and the entire convertible mechanism. They had parts shipped in via overnight delivery and completed the job in a day. Total cost: $0. The car is NOT under warranty.
I owned a Ducati from 95-99 and EXPECTED it to have problems. After all, Italian engineering is legendary for all the opposite reasons that German engineering is so lauded! Despite being rung out repeatedly, subjected to over 15 track days, dynoed and drag raced, I never even experienced so much as a burned out light bulb! Perhaps I was just lucky. Sold it with 15,000 miles on it to a very happy buyer...
My 1993 Honda Accord has 138,000 miles on it. Other than a timing belt, spark plugs, a battery, 2 sets of brake pads, tires and oil changes every 3k miles it has never asked anything of me. It runs like a top, sounds like a sewing machine, and soldiers on loyally without complaint or need for expensive repaiir. It WON'T go 150mph, but I've redlined it on freeway ramps dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. It doesn't require ANY oil between scheduled changes and doesn't smoke. There is no doubt in my mind it will pass 180,000 miles without needing new valve guides. Did I mention that I routinely tow a trailer and dirt bikes with the Honda?
So what's the point of all this? I spent a LOT of money on a perfect 98' Cab with 5800 original miles on it. I expected EXCELLENCE. I drive hard and know that sometimes things break. What I didn't expect was the myriad of problems that are readily accepted, even EMBRACED by Porsche owners. I have no intention of selling my 993. But, if the valve guides go at 20, 30, or 50k miles, the car goes - PERIOD!
MC
12-10-2001, 01:27 PM
#13
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All I can say is (in 63K miles on my '95 993)
- NO oil consumption problems
- NO oil leak problems
- NO window squeal problems
- NO harness problems (have the updated harness, apparently from checking with E. J.)
Car brings a grin to my face every time I drive it - on the track and the street. Clutch/tranny (exc. for slave cylinder) still feel fine (my '87 Accord at 50K miles had a worn-out clutch and bad synchros; prev. 911s needed a tranny rebuild by this mileage). In comparison with my old '76 and '84 911's, this 993 has been the most trouble-free one I've had.
- NO oil consumption problems
- NO oil leak problems
- NO window squeal problems
- NO harness problems (have the updated harness, apparently from checking with E. J.)
Car brings a grin to my face every time I drive it - on the track and the street. Clutch/tranny (exc. for slave cylinder) still feel fine (my '87 Accord at 50K miles had a worn-out clutch and bad synchros; prev. 911s needed a tranny rebuild by this mileage). In comparison with my old '76 and '84 911's, this 993 has been the most trouble-free one I've had.
12-10-2001, 01:28 PM
#14
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Originally posted by bill walczak:
<STRONG>97 300 Mercedes inadvertently deployed the airbag while driving.</STRONG>
<STRONG>97 300 Mercedes inadvertently deployed the airbag while driving.</STRONG>
You didn't know that this was the rarely known about but often installed, anti-doze option on your car. Doze off and bam! airbag in your face. Option doesn't cost much but when you use it...$$$
Greg
12-10-2001, 01:48 PM
#15
Porsche builds 1,000s of cars and these cars have 1,000s of parts. Certainly some of the parts will have design flaws and some of the parts will have unique failures. With the 993 (post '95) the only issues that seem to qualify as "design flaws" are the windscreen squeak and the slave cylinder, both of which are very inexpensive too fix. I'd say it's pretty remarkable for a car of this performance level to have so few common problems and for such problems to be so insignificant and inexpensive to fix. JD Power recently ranked the 993 as the most reliable used sports car in a survey, the details of which I don't have handy to recite.
This is of little solace to those people who are having more significant problems with their 993s, but those problems fall into the "unique failure" category.
p.s. Tom, consumption of 1 quart per 1,000 miles doesn't sound unusual, especially if the car is getting some good exercise.
This is of little solace to those people who are having more significant problems with their 993s, but those problems fall into the "unique failure" category.
p.s. Tom, consumption of 1 quart per 1,000 miles doesn't sound unusual, especially if the car is getting some good exercise.