kev

Hello Board,

I was in my 993 on the interstate and it was raining pretty good. I'm in 5th gear at approximately 60-70 mph and I need to do a lane switch from the left hand to middle lane. During the maneuver the tail gives away and we're (my 4 year old son was in the back) into a CW spin at 60ish in moderate traffic. It happened pretty quickly and i honestly dont remember how much i was on the throttle, but i doubt very much if even at all. Well, we did a 360 and hit the barrier wall. Damage was a squished front fender and moderate scratches on lower bumper cover, fender, rocker panel, door and side mirror. Wheel was whacked out of alignment.

I have to admit that i am very disappointed with my vehicle right now. As of today, i am offically in the search for either a 4S or Turbo, logic being i want the added saftey of AWD and bigger brakes.

Do you guys think that AWD and/or TT brakes would have prevented this mishap?

Well anyways, this has been a lesson learned. And now i've convinced my wife that i should indeed upgrade to a 4S or TT.

Be careful guys!

STLPCA

Kevin
Glad you & your son are fine - that's the most important thing.
You didn't mention tires - ultimately their loss of adhesion is what led you astray. Assuming good tires, good tread depth, etc., perhaps AWD MAY have made some difference, but from your description of speed, heavy rain & either excessive throttle or an abrupt enough weight transfer to cause a spin, I'd doubt it. As to getting big reds, I can't imagine how bigger brakes would have had any effect on the outcome.
No flame intended, but your statement that "I have to admit that i am very disappointed with my vehicle," misses the obvious. IMO, this was a case of driver error, of which we are all guilty at times. Luckily, the education was not as costly as it could have been.

Also IMO, the most effective way to reduce this type of error is to attend DEs or professional driving schools to experience & learn the limits of car & driver in a controlled, safe setting where (most) spins only bruise egos.

I realize you're upset that this happened and I empathize with you. I hope you don't take this post the wrong way.

Tabor

No offense intended to my rear engine brethren, but do you think this is related to the engine being located so far back in the 911 series cars?

I only ask because I may be able to pick up a 964 or 993 in the near future.

Thank You.

kev

Hi Dan,

Sorry...i have S-02's, rears are at 40%-50% remaining.
No offense taken with your comments.
Certainly i am at fault in this situation. I could have chosen to drive my SUV. Or waited for the rain to pass. Or slowed to 45 considering the circumstances. I understand that my driver inexperience is the main culprit here. My disappointment is rather with the, IMO, uncomfortably small envelope of this driver error. If i need to go to a DE to help me make a lane change in wet weather at moderate speed, then yeah i'm probably guilty of disappointment. I recall that recently someone induced a spin in wet weather at 20-25mph on a left hand turn, so i was VERY aware of the hazards involved in wet weather. And my son was with me,so i certainly was not driving aggressively. My spin, then, was a total surprise.

Like i said, a lesson learned. No matter what level of experience i might be at, i personally will always hesitate to drive in the rain. And that does disappoint me since i love driving my car.

ked

It is most unlikely that a properly set up (alignment) and well-shod Porsche would provide one w/ a surprise "snap spin" while changing lanes in the rain on a straight road at moderate speed. So, as Dan suggests, examine the car, maybe there is a problem that isn't manifest in dry conditions. Then, examine the road - anything there (oil, a pothole filled w/ water, a weird camber change, etc)? Then, examine the driver. Most accidents are the result of a combination of factors, any single one wouldn't have triggered the event, but together... Learn & Live!
btw, better brakes might only have changed theprecise nature of the outcome, not likely to have avoided the incident you describe. until you figure this out, the last thing I'd do is buy a Turbo - they offer even more ways to have incidents. 4WD? sure, why not?

Ray Calvo

kev, sorry to hea rabout this incident; glad that you and your son are OK.


Like others, I prescribe problem to the "nut behind the wheel". I have driven 911s for 25 years, including in heavy rain with bald/minimal tires (i.e., BFG R1 track tires). I have had several white-knuckle experiences in heavy rain with car so equipped, but they have all been cases of front-end hydroplaning, and losing partial or all front traction (turing a corner and having the car go straight, hit a puddle and have it turn the car slightly). I have had similar experiences with my Audi Quattros with bad tires. Never have I had a case where I felt I was going into a tail-out spin.

I think possibly what happened is you turned, hit a puddle with one wheel, and lifted all at the same time - and in order for the lift to induce oversteer I feel you must have jerked the wheel.

Would a 4WD 993 helped? Possibly, but uncertain.

You never felt any lightening of the steering in the rain? The one thing I love about the pre-996 series 911s is the superb steering feedback you get. You know instantly what is going on as far as front traction - and when you hit a puddle and the car hydroplanes, boy you know it!

Good luck!

os993

Kev, very sorry to hear about your incident.

That said, I find it very hard to imagine loosing such control under the conditions you mention (no offense intended, please understand).

I drive my 95 993 (2wd) daily in rain and sun, and have never EVEN come close to such total lack of control. Were you very sharp with your lane changing? Did you change lanes too aggressively, then let off the throttle and hit the brakes? I'm just trying to understand how this could have happened.

Like all other posts have eloquently stated, no disrespect or personal attack intended here. The 993 is a bit more tricky to drive, but not at this failure level. Some older 911 models might be more prone to such failures, but a 993?

I am completely confident driving my 2wd in rain, and feel as safe in it as any other car. I'm on 17" pirelli P-zero's, fyi.

Tom 97 C2-S, So. Cal.

Glad to hear everyone's fine. Your kid will have a great "share day" in Kindergarten. Let me first say, we have ALL been there but some of us lucky ones have not made it to the retaining wall.

I'd have to agree with the above thoughts as to what/why your spin occured.

Regarding "big reds"; they offer a small improvement over stock brakes. Pads would offer a bigger change (especially on a track).

Regarding AWD/Turbo; Both work well when on the gas, otherwise both slide equally as nice backwards as you 2WD.

In your second post, you mentioned going to a DE to learn to make a lane change. That is a harsh criticism of yourself, BUT have you gone to a DE and purposefully past the limits of adhesion (I hate to say control)on a wet skid pad or slalom driving?

Rest assured in your scenario, I have found our new C4 is only different than our C2S while corning on the gas or severe trail braking. I'd vote for getting the car fixed and leave the bad weather driving for the SUV.

Regards,

Tom
97 C2S
02 C4Cab

ked

Kev, If I were you, after the car is repaired and you are confident it was all done right, I'd DRIVE IT LIKE MAD in the rain. I'd start in large empty parking lots at low speeds (25 - 35) and break it lose & spin it like crazy for a considerable period. Tight turns, smooth wide slides - try it all! You will get the feel of how your car (& you) behave in the wet; under, through & outta control! One never knows when you'll be faced with a monsoon while driving, being relaxed & experienced, you'll do fine.

Tabor, it is possible that some drivers will never master the mystery of driving a rear-engined car, so I would reflect deeply before purchasing one.

Greg Fishman

Kev,
The biggest thing you will learn (at least what I found) at a DE event in the rain is how to "read" the pavement. Maybe you didn't see a pool of water collecting. I know how easy it is to get distracted by traffic, the radio etc and not be able to focus on the road conditions.

You might have done absolutely nothing wrong and hit a patch of oil, or antifreeze and nothing but God's hand would have kept you from spinning. Just be thankful you and your son didn't get hit by another car or suffer any injury.

Don't be too disappointed with your car, it could have happened to anyone in any car. Be thankful you were driving a very well made and sturdy car.
Greg

ed devinney

One more vote for the improving the nut behind the wheel. Just over a year ago I hooked my 993 into a tree on a cold, cold road with summer tires providing little traction. Worst of all I was on my way to my first DE to learn how to drive the car properly after 15k miles of driving it without issue in everything but snow. Knowing the theory of rear-engined cars and having some experience, I thought I knew what I was doing. The 993 had covered for my mistakes very well, though, and I was unprepared when I finally went past the limit. I walked away and the insurance settlement was good, so I can't really complain.

It felt at the time like a surprise, but I know now what I did wrong, and 8 or 9 days at the track this year have helped immensely. Plus they're fun as heck. I bought a 944 Turbo S to learn on - when I can ****** the pebbles from the master's hand, I'll get another 993 :-)

Fix the car and head out to as many DEs as you can. Drive a beater in the rain if you have to.

Tabor - I've had my 951 now for about as long as I had my 993, not an expert but have some experience in both cars. The rear weight bias definitely changes things, and is probably what bit kev IMO. The 911 is definitely different to drive, but if you keep an open mind and don't just expect to know how to drive it well, you'll be fine. Go for the 993 if you do it.

Tito

Kev,
I feel for you, as I has a hairy moment last night. Admittedly while I was taking off from the traffic lights. I went sideways and fish tailed quite wildy. Luckily I managed to stay on the road and come out ahead, but I must have looked a right tit (Q humorous quips). I think the reasons it lost it on the bend was that it was wet and my left rear tyre was shot. I think that I managed to keep it on the road because I did not lift off.
Sure this nut needs education. But I still feel for you Kev.
Tito.

tom_993

My guess is that you hit a puddle and hydroplaned. It would take some pretty wicked yanking on the wheel, in conjunction with massive incorrect throttle and brake input, to spin a 993 in a lane change.

roger sf

Having driven a C2S and a 993TT extensively, I believe you can rule out brakes as being a differentiator in your little shunt. Other than on the track there is no difference in feel or performance for everyday driving. Once your spinning, your spinning and massive binders aren't going to make a difference.

I also don't think that AWD would have mattered either, as the car would not have been able to get enough power transfer to the front wheels to make a difference, even if there was any extra grip to be had up front. AWD by no means eliminates a car's ability to spin, as I can attest from personal experience

This was probably a combination of too much speed, sub par tire tread, and an unexpected amount of water. If one of the three hadn't been there, you'd be okay. In the end it sounds like you will have learned a good lesson and I compliment you on your good judgement and humility in reaching out for help to understand why it happened.

Robert Henriksen

AWD? maybe a help. Brakes? Nope. Turbo? NO...

PSM? yes, that would have helped save your bacon! But you'd have to abandon the 993 and move to the wasser-pumper line.

Anytime it rains, I am the MODEL Driver's Ed student. Both hands on the wheel, no radio/cell phone/drink/food/newspaper , nothing. I had to drive back from the track 10 days ago on bald Kuhmos, and while the rain wasn't too heavy, the 50 mile stretch of Highway 6 is older asphalt, worn smooth in the ruts, and the ruts collect standing water. So I was continuing seeking out the 'wet line', placing my tires in other cars' tire tracks, etc. With those tires, I've no doubt I could have easily spun into a ditch.

With 40% tread left on S-02s, it can still be done (obviously, since you just did it!) -- it just depends on how deep the standing water is, oil slicks, tire pressure, *alignment*, and driver input (or lack thereof).

So, if you want to upgrade the car's abilities to deal with that kind of thing, think PSM. If you want to upgrade your own abilities, think DE.

Shoot, during heavy rains (let alone the occasional ice in Houston!!), I see a dismal number of cars spun off the freeway. These aren't rear engine cars, and there weren't even any curves in the road! I watched a hatchback spin as it drove alone in a straight line at about 55 mph. They didn't even attempt a lane change. So if all those other cars have managed to spin w/o the engine in the back, it must be at least feasible other factors were to blame...

Oh, and FWIW, I've spun my Mustang at about 10 mph and smacked the front corner into a pole. Accelerating (gently) away from a light, turning right. Recent rain, slimey pavement, lots of torque in first gear, V-8, OVERSTEER! I didn't do any driver training back then, and my reflexes weren't good enough then to catch the car. Engine wasn't in the back of that car, either