B-Line

Wow, the value of used cars has really come down. I've been monitoring for a few weeks because I'm looking for the right CS4. Unfortunatley the value of my Audi S4 has dropped a ton too. Any thoughts?
I'm thinking it's because of the economy and the 0% down, 0% financing on new cars..
But I also think that Jan 1, will also bring the prices down more..
It's a double edged sword for me, I can pick up a used 993 for less but I am going to get considerably less for my Audi than I think it's worth. Trade in values are horrible...
and no one seems to be buying private right now. It's like a stall on the used car market..

B-Line

even Kelly's blue book which always gives high numbers is showing real low value..
and Edmunds.com is even worse (black book)..

Dbltime

Guess what, they are cars. 1000's built between the Porsche/Audi/BMW's... models, colors. They are not investments they are toys. Just like always, toys are expensive. So my 993 that I bought for 55K last winter is now worth 45K. (maybe) If I were replacing it the new car is down as well. The only way you loose is if you are getting out of the "toy" car biz. Then you sell at a loss. Game is over.
Don't obsess over values they are not shrines.

B-Line

I agree, I'm not obsessing. I'll take a hit on my S4 but only if I get into a 993 for a super value. People on Autotrader are crazy though. They are asking more for their car than the dealerships who include warranty and certified and less mileage. It's kind of strange. And everyone keeps saying to me yeah but the C4S is rare! Rare my ***. They might not have made a ton of them but there certainley not hard to find.
Cars are toys, I agree. I will sell my car for a loss but damn, I enjoyed the hell out of it. It was worth every penny.
Looks like I am going to buy from a dealership though. It's cheaper than private??? and I get more car. I guess the price of something only equals what someone will pay for it, and what someone will agree to sell it for!
Hope I find a car soon!!

bet

I think you can see this on most cars right now and not just the high line cars. There are private sellers holding on to the idea that their car is worth more than the market is dictating, hence the better than normal dealer pricing. Dealers know that the used car market is soft which means when demand is low the only way to sell anything is to drop the price. Most individuals have to much emotional baggage in their cars and fail to see the real market. Additionally, the individuals may have too much money in the car (upside down) to sell it for the market value.

Another factor to consider is: I have a couple of friends that sell domestic and Japanese cars and they have sold alot of cars the last month or so with the 0% financing. The result they say is a huge inventory of used cars that were taken in on trade (usually at low trade in values). To compound matters, the demand is low for the used cars because of the incentive financing on the new cars. All this adds up to a buyers market.

Tom 97 C2-S, So. Cal.

I was just in the same boat. I held out for a private party on my wife's 97 XK8 C, pristine, lots of "eyeball", 20K miles. It took 2 weeks, but I picked up $9K more than the Jag or Porsche dealer on trade.

If you are worried about depreciation, lease a new C4S and let the banks worry about it. As mentioned above, many incentives are out there for new cars on top of the lease subventing that Jag/Audi/Infinity are famous for.

I own the C2S (and have enjoyed watching a somewhat buoyed price), but we leased the wifes 02' C4 Tip Cab. I am definately afraid of holding that one, with 01'Cabs with $102K stickers being offered for under $80K.

Tom
97C2S
02C4Cab/Tip

brandon

Would have to agree w/ all posted so far. Here's my $.02 FWIW. I thought I'd thin out the cars in my driveway & sell our '99 Miata (loaded & less than 10k mi). Priced it below ALL of the comparable competition (dealers and private). Only had two nibbles in a month - no firm offers (except a low-ball $12k from a dealer). Since it is a toy (two seater), and it's winter (bad time for convertibles), and it's end of the year, I figured that leaving it for sale and driving it when we felt like enjoying the top down made more sense than "dumping" it. Bottom line is that cars are generally NOT an investment (only a costly hobby or necessity in which depreciation can only be slightly offset by carefully maintaining the asset).
Best of Luck,
Flash
'96 993C2

B-Line

your all so right....glad to know that I'm not alone out here.
Having said all that. If any of you guys need to depart with your C4S and you recognize that the car is not worth, 70k, or 60k or even high 50k, send me an email and we'll talk. Otherwise I'll spend my money at the dealership..
Just realize that a 96-97 C4S with 20k miles on it is only worth high 40's to low 50's depending on options, color, and condition.
And if you think that's a low number, go to a dealership and ask them what they'll give you on trade. Don't be surprised when the number is in the low 40's. (I have done a lot of research, wholesale, auctions, etc.)
and that's what the cars are worth now.
Might even drop some when the 996 C4S comes out and when Jan 1, rolls around.
Sorry to spread the bad news...
For those of you that can, hold onto the car, they might come back in value in 3-5 yrs. otherwise, give me a call

B-Line

oh yeah, one last thing...
I don't blame people for trying..
I have my Audi S4 on auto trader and my price is real high. Do I think I'll get it, NO...But I don't have an unrealistic idea of what it's worth. I know that if I trade it in I'll be lucky to get 28k for it (converted back to stock.) I have it listed real high but if I get a serious buyer I know my price will come down in the thousands.
Hope this whole thing doesn't sound like a flame, I love this board. But it just seems like people asking 70k, 60k, is totally absurd and I needed a place to vent..
I can't wait to have a PCAR and hope I find one soon, it is a buyers market.
(Hope to get some real money for my audi too but I'm not banking on it.) thanks...

acastell

B-Line-
I had to comment when I read your post...I an NOT a frequent poster, just a browser. I learned long ago while obtaining one of those degrees that seem to do little more than add letters to your resume, that the market sets the price. I you are telling us that the C4S is not worth 50/60/70K that ALL of 'us' seem to be asking, AND that all of us should lower our price, then you are in fact validating the current market price. If ALL of the 'supply' is priced at 'X' +/- 10%, the the fair market value for the 'supply' is X - 7%.
I appreciate your interest in the C4S, it is a remarkable car.
If you successfully lower the price of the C4S to 40K, then I would appreciate it if you can tackle the vintage Patek watch market...

Anthony (please read this with a grain of salt...I am just having some fun)

B-Line home

Wow, I can't believe I actually made someone who doesn't post, post.
I am not trying to devalue the price of the C4S to 40k... I only wish I had that power. If I did, I'd be buying and selling stocks instead of being in the productions biz
Let me clear things up. Many car owners recognize that the price of all used cars has come down significantly. I have seen many C4S priced in the range where I would buy it. Those that have the car priced in that range are aware of current market value and have there car priced accordingly. the value of the C4S in the low 40's is for trade in or whole sale (auction market) Private value is in the low 50's to high 40's.
now going back to supply and demand, if the supply was low and the demand was high the car would have a higher market value. But right now there is more supply than demand and many C4S owners realize that. So those who are willing to sell recocgnize they are selling at bottom dollar (although it may still go down a bit more)

That's not to say the prices may not eventully come back up and if I owned the car I would hold onto it for a few more years.
What I am saying is, there are some unrealistic asking prices for the car and they are being posted by uninformed sellers.
No one except maybe a uninformed buyer is going to pay 60k, 70k, in this market. It's not a good deal. I have found many C4S for around 52k with less than 20k miles. Add $1500-$2000 if you buy from a dealer because of certification and warranty. The market value of the car being X, but X not being as high as many people think.
Take a poll and find out how many C4S buyers have gotten 60k for there car in the past 2-3 months. My bet is none. I even know someone who bought from a dealership a 97 with <20k miles for under 56k. So, that's market value. And Edmunds.com and black book are good judges of market value.
The value of a car is subjective. Someone might tell me my car is worth 20k. i won't sell it for that price, I'll hold onto it.
But the market value is based on the dealerships, the auctions, etc. etc.
This is not my attempt to lower the price of the car, rather it's my attempt to alert sellers of the actual or realized value that the car has based on fair market value based on what the dealerships will pay for a trade.
If a dealership will pay 45k for a car then it's not worth 60k..
I hope I haven't offended or bothered anyone with these posts, I just got annoyed when I called people who were asking over 65k for a car that doesn't have that value now. If every C4S owner decided not to sell and there were none available then maybe the price would go back up. But as long as dealerships and private party are selling the cars in the low 50's, there is no justification for the same car being sold in the 60's.
but that's my opinion.
I hope I can sell my audi for what I think it's worth but chances are I'll have to sell it for what the market dictates it's worth based on trade in value, whole sale value, and what other people are getting for there cars...
hope this clears things up...And I hope I didn't annoy anyone. I was just trying to spread some knowledge based on what I have discovered in looking for this car.

acastell

Very clear response...nicely written! No feathers ruffled on this side. We are all in this declining economy together! Good luck with your Audi.

Anthony

B-Line home

thanks acastell,

on that note, want to sell me your car...
hehehehehe

Just kidding, I have found a few really beautiful cars, unfortunatley they are mostly out of state. I hope to find one in state or I will do some traveling to find the right one.
But it will be hard for me to do a PPI out of state. But I'm in no rush and truthfully I think and hope they come down a bit more (because of jan 1, and the 996 C4S)
So, I'm going to hold out for now.
then there's the flip side...ahhhh my car as of jan 1 will lose value, and they are going to release the info on the new audi S4 soon too. Damned if I do, damned if i don't..
I'll tell you this much, if I had a C4S I'd consider holding it for at least 3-5 yrs when the price comes back up..
(but people have said the same thing to me about the Audi.)
but when you want a new toy, you want a new toy...You guys are all so lucky to have your cars and I can't wait to join the club...

Hope to Pass you soon!

E. J. - 993 Alumni

B-Line,

I can't believe you live in South Florida and can't find a C4S in state? Where are you looking? Drive up to Ft. Lauderdale and look at Toy Store and the other one across the street on Sunrise, then drive up 95 to Pompano and look at Champion.

E. J.

hanfrac

B-Line - I do not agree with you. I do not think it's your place to tell people what their cars are valued at, anymore than it's my place to tell you where to sell an S4. The free market works. I'll take the bet with you that there are sellers of '96-97 C4S's who have sold their car for $60k or more in the last three months.

The used car market sucks right now. And dealer trade-in prices reflect the fact that they have lots of inventory and few buyers for preowned stock. That, however, does not make your statement correct that sellers in the high $50's/$60's/$70's are dreamers. And it does not entitle you to a perfect history, perfectly loved one-enthusiast-owner car at $2000-$5000 over dealer trade-in values. These are emotional cars and are relatively scarce. If they weren't, you'd fine a nicely priced one near where you live.

The market will determine the prices. If all of these people are asking these high prices, I guarantee you that some of them are selling. Otherwise, prices would drop.

Good luck finding your car. But don't expect to browbeat someone into selling you one in your desired price range. That said, I'm sure that if you're tenacious and patient, you'll stumble on the occasional "motivated seller."