Double Clutch & Trail braking
09-26-2002, 07:32 PM
#46
Drifting
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Mark,
Are you advocating double clutching for a street car on the track for downshifting? (I've only been practicing heel and toe blipping.) Also does it matter if you are dumping down more than one gear which you do? (For example 4th to 2nd instead of 4th to 3rd to 2nd.)
Are you advocating double clutching for a street car on the track for downshifting? (I've only been practicing heel and toe blipping.) Also does it matter if you are dumping down more than one gear which you do? (For example 4th to 2nd instead of 4th to 3rd to 2nd.)
09-26-2002, 07:36 PM
#47
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dj
[quote] I was referring to Seth's description of how horrible the drivers were at the DE's he's attended. I was attempting to reassure him that on the West coast, that was not the case. <hr></blockquote>
got it. thanks.
m
[quote] I was referring to Seth's description of how horrible the drivers were at the DE's he's attended. I was attempting to reassure him that on the West coast, that was not the case. <hr></blockquote>
got it. thanks.
m
09-26-2002, 07:47 PM
#48
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[quote]Originally posted by ScottMellor:
<strong>Mark,
Are you advocating double clutching for a street car on the track for downshifting? (I've only been practicing heel and toe blipping.) Also does it matter if you are dumping down more than one gear which you do? (For example 4th to 2nd instead of 4th to 3rd to 2nd.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I do not double clutch. Unless someone has a car whose sychros are not working right, there is little benefit (little, not no benefit) - it just isn't worth it, IMO. As far as skipping gears, I think that is a rhythym thing. If you can go direct from 4th to 2nd, that is fine (again IMO) - I do it that way all the time in the SRF. In some cars, and for some drivers, yoiu can be smoother by going through all the gears. I recommend that for novices then make your own decision as you get smoother.
Of course with my new car, it is a different story - can not double clutch downshift and can not skip gears, but I never let the clutch out for each gear, only when I am at the final gear.
<strong>Mark,
Are you advocating double clutching for a street car on the track for downshifting? (I've only been practicing heel and toe blipping.) Also does it matter if you are dumping down more than one gear which you do? (For example 4th to 2nd instead of 4th to 3rd to 2nd.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I do not double clutch. Unless someone has a car whose sychros are not working right, there is little benefit (little, not no benefit) - it just isn't worth it, IMO. As far as skipping gears, I think that is a rhythym thing. If you can go direct from 4th to 2nd, that is fine (again IMO) - I do it that way all the time in the SRF. In some cars, and for some drivers, yoiu can be smoother by going through all the gears. I recommend that for novices then make your own decision as you get smoother.
Of course with my new car, it is a different story - can not double clutch downshift and can not skip gears, but I never let the clutch out for each gear, only when I am at the final gear.
09-26-2002, 08:08 PM
#49
Drifting
Wow,
After being off the board for so long, didn't mean to start such a heated debate..
HEY ALL
These are my thoughts:
When I went to Skip, the very last thing we were taught (Other than race starts) was Trail Braking. We spent a lot of time on it. First in the classroom with props and charts, then on the track. I had done 30 DE's prior to Skip and never intentionally trail braked. At racing school, they set up a stop box. You then go 10/10's through third gear at full speed until you get to the first cone, you then threshold trailbrake through the arc to the Apex, feel the lateral g then shoot out of the turn (What a rush in an open wheel, open cockpit vehicle.)
You then stop again and the instructors who are standing outside watching critique your technique. I, as did everyone else spun while learning this technique. Granted we didn't have ABS or traction control, but the setup was real tight.
I just think heel n toe down****ing and trail braking shoule not be taught at DE's. Heel n toe should be learned off the track and Trail Braking at extended schools with proper instruction.
As far as double clutching, your right. It does save the longetivity of the syncro's. It's just too akward and interrupts my concentration. I'll take a single fat blip any day and worry about the syncro's later.
After being off the board for so long, didn't mean to start such a heated debate..
HEY ALL
These are my thoughts:
When I went to Skip, the very last thing we were taught (Other than race starts) was Trail Braking. We spent a lot of time on it. First in the classroom with props and charts, then on the track. I had done 30 DE's prior to Skip and never intentionally trail braked. At racing school, they set up a stop box. You then go 10/10's through third gear at full speed until you get to the first cone, you then threshold trailbrake through the arc to the Apex, feel the lateral g then shoot out of the turn (What a rush in an open wheel, open cockpit vehicle.)
You then stop again and the instructors who are standing outside watching critique your technique. I, as did everyone else spun while learning this technique. Granted we didn't have ABS or traction control, but the setup was real tight.
I just think heel n toe down****ing and trail braking shoule not be taught at DE's. Heel n toe should be learned off the track and Trail Braking at extended schools with proper instruction.
As far as double clutching, your right. It does save the longetivity of the syncro's. It's just too akward and interrupts my concentration. I'll take a single fat blip any day and worry about the syncro's later.
09-26-2002, 08:13 PM
#50
Drifting
Also,
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers. I'm also sure the drivers out here are great as well and I hope to learn a lot from them.
I'm no pro.
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers. I'm also sure the drivers out here are great as well and I hope to learn a lot from them.
I'm no pro.
09-26-2002, 08:50 PM
#51
Haiku Grasshoppa
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[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>I just think heel n toe down****ing and trail braking shoule not be taught at DE's. Heel n toe should be learned off the track and Trail Braking at extended schools with proper instruction.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I'm glad you aren't in charge. Heel and toe downshifting can be taught anywhere, to anyone. All it takes is a good teacher, and a willing student.
<strong> [quote]
I'll take a single fat blip any day and worry about the syncro's later.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you're just like Hurley Haywood!
<strong>I just think heel n toe down****ing and trail braking shoule not be taught at DE's. Heel n toe should be learned off the track and Trail Braking at extended schools with proper instruction.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I'm glad you aren't in charge. Heel and toe downshifting can be taught anywhere, to anyone. All it takes is a good teacher, and a willing student.
<strong> [quote]
I'll take a single fat blip any day and worry about the syncro's later.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you're just like Hurley Haywood!
09-26-2002, 08:54 PM
#52
Lifetime Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>Also,
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers. I'm also sure the drivers out here are great as well and I hope to learn a lot from them.
I'm no pro.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nice edit. It really doesn't matter what you think of the drivers out here.
What I don't understand is how you can describe the people you ran with (not necessarily characteristic of all the drivers in that area) as unable to drive hard enough to trail brake, or even threshold brake. You then tell us how they lack the experience to find a rain line or get one from someone else - insted they just go out and spin. Yet you describe them as good drivers.
<strong>Also,
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers. I'm also sure the drivers out here are great as well and I hope to learn a lot from them.
I'm no pro.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nice edit. It really doesn't matter what you think of the drivers out here.
What I don't understand is how you can describe the people you ran with (not necessarily characteristic of all the drivers in that area) as unable to drive hard enough to trail brake, or even threshold brake. You then tell us how they lack the experience to find a rain line or get one from someone else - insted they just go out and spin. Yet you describe them as good drivers.
09-26-2002, 09:10 PM
#53
Haiku Grasshoppa
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[Note: Seth is from the East coast]
[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>
I have run with over 10 groups and I have yet to be in an enviorment where even the advanced groups have the opportiunity to trail brake. What I find mostly happens is, the guy in front of you who is not trail braking or even threshold braking, is coasting into the braking zone.</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
and then...
[quote]Subsequently posted by B-Line:
<strong>
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Does anyone else read this a get a real sense of the meaning of cognative dissonance?
[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>
I have run with over 10 groups and I have yet to be in an enviorment where even the advanced groups have the opportiunity to trail brake. What I find mostly happens is, the guy in front of you who is not trail braking or even threshold braking, is coasting into the braking zone.</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
and then...
[quote]Subsequently posted by B-Line:
<strong>
I don't think the drivers on the east coast are horrible, by no means.
They are very good drivers.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Does anyone else read this a get a real sense of the meaning of cognative dissonance?
09-26-2002, 09:18 PM
#55
Drifting
Mark,
I'm sure there are some great and not so great drivers everywhere. East coast, West coast, etc.
Also some great and not so great instructors.
Everytime I have the opportiunity to drive with an instructor I jump at the chance. There's always something more to learn. I'm also going back to racing school in December. I want to learn more.
But that does not substitute what I saw at Sebring at a PCA event in the rain. It was mayhem.
It's probably true that Skip school got it ingrained in my head that DE's are not a safe place to learn certain things but that's there competition. I do happen to agree with them on certain things. When is the last time any DE had a classroom discussion on Trail Braking, rain lines, heel n toe??
I've sat in on and shot video in many classrooms and I've never heard it mentioned. Of course every driver/instructor is going to have a different learning curve but as a whole, it's my opinion that novice drivers should not be attempting to trail brake. And when's the last time any club offered an advanced techinique seminar to solo drivers?
Track driving as we all know can be very dangerous and expensive. Shouldn't we encourage novice drivers to practice safety. Rather than telling a guy who has been on the track once or twice that he should be learning to TB?
I'm sure there are some great and not so great drivers everywhere. East coast, West coast, etc.
Also some great and not so great instructors.
Everytime I have the opportiunity to drive with an instructor I jump at the chance. There's always something more to learn. I'm also going back to racing school in December. I want to learn more.
But that does not substitute what I saw at Sebring at a PCA event in the rain. It was mayhem.
It's probably true that Skip school got it ingrained in my head that DE's are not a safe place to learn certain things but that's there competition. I do happen to agree with them on certain things. When is the last time any DE had a classroom discussion on Trail Braking, rain lines, heel n toe??
I've sat in on and shot video in many classrooms and I've never heard it mentioned. Of course every driver/instructor is going to have a different learning curve but as a whole, it's my opinion that novice drivers should not be attempting to trail brake. And when's the last time any club offered an advanced techinique seminar to solo drivers?
Track driving as we all know can be very dangerous and expensive. Shouldn't we encourage novice drivers to practice safety. Rather than telling a guy who has been on the track once or twice that he should be learning to TB?
09-26-2002, 09:21 PM
#56
Drifting
Greg,
Were you not there that day at Sebring????
Do I need to post the video??
and I doubt very much location has much to do with the skill of the driver. It's not an east coast west coast thing!! I've never even driven out here..
Were you not there that day at Sebring????
Do I need to post the video??
and I doubt very much location has much to do with the skill of the driver. It's not an east coast west coast thing!! I've never even driven out here..
09-26-2002, 09:39 PM
#59
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[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>
Were you not there that day at Sebring????
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was. I remember it raining pretty good and then clearing off, only to start again. I didn't see anyone in your group spin but that was because I was busy prepping my car. A lot of guys come down from the North for that event and maybe they had never driven in the rain there before, it was pretty nasty for a bit.
IMO, Mayhem is 50+ cars starting at the PCA race at VIR, in the rain, not a wet DE session.
My experience with Ferrari was a bit different. They weren't the best drivers, since most had never been on the track before but they listened and truely appreciated the instructors. They were probably one of the safer and more considerate groups I had driven with. YMMV.
<strong>
Were you not there that day at Sebring????
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was. I remember it raining pretty good and then clearing off, only to start again. I didn't see anyone in your group spin but that was because I was busy prepping my car. A lot of guys come down from the North for that event and maybe they had never driven in the rain there before, it was pretty nasty for a bit.
IMO, Mayhem is 50+ cars starting at the PCA race at VIR, in the rain, not a wet DE session.
My experience with Ferrari was a bit different. They weren't the best drivers, since most had never been on the track before but they listened and truely appreciated the instructors. They were probably one of the safer and more considerate groups I had driven with. YMMV.
09-26-2002, 09:45 PM
#60
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[quote]Originally posted by B-Line:
<strong>...It's not an east coast west coast thing!! I've never even driven out here...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now this poor Finn got finally confused... What happens to a driver if he is not living on a coast at all?
Just joking here!
Nice to 'see' you back Seth and very interesting discussion.
<strong>...It's not an east coast west coast thing!! I've never even driven out here...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now this poor Finn got finally confused... What happens to a driver if he is not living on a coast at all?
Just joking here!
Nice to 'see' you back Seth and very interesting discussion.