Greg Fishman

Seth wrote: "And when's the last time any club offered an advanced techinique seminar to solo drivers?
Track driving as we all know can be very dangerous and expensive. Shouldn't we encourage novice drivers to practice safety. Rather than telling a guy who has been on the track once or twice that he should be learning to TB?"


Usually solo drivers need to seek this type of instruction, it doesn't just show up in their laps.
I have been to two instructor schools put on by a BMW Club. The instructor is a pro racer and has competed in Speed Challenge and Grand Am Cup. It was very beneficial.

Our PCA club has several members who are pro drivers and are more than happy to help the advanced drivers hone their skills.

Our club does talk about TB in classrooms. Much better to explain this than to have novices going out and trying it without instruction. We basically suggest they slow down before attempting and consult their instructors.

SundayDriver

Seth,

One thing that is clear is that you and I have very different personalities and different ways of analyzing what we experience to tranlsate it into lessons. You give almost all your weighting to what you have personally experienced, reagardless of whether it is broad experience (10 different DE clubs) or very narrow experience (1 Pro drving school). Examples:

You beleive that trail braking is difficult and the fact that Skippy teaches it in day 3 is some of your evidence.

I have also taken Skippy. We did trail braking in day 1 and some in day 2. Skippy is constantly re-arranging the order of their drills. Not sure you can take that to mean anything. Also, depending on the instructor you get, you hear different things in the same school. You assert that trail braking should not be taught to novices, especially not in the DE environment (I'll get back to that aspect). Let's look at what Skip Barber has to say from "Going Faster" - "Our philosophy is that it is easier in the long run to learn the skill and sensitivity required to brake and turn right from the beginning...". BTW - I have done multiple Skippy classes in different locations, 6 different classes at the Mid-Ohio school so I have a broader base to call on for Pro Schools. In all of those. trail braking was taught to novices on the first or second day.

I will offer, for your consideration:
Each of us has our own strong and weak points. My weakness, as a driver, it threshold braking. Because that is my toughest area, it would be easy to presume that applies to everyone - it does not. Perhaps trail braking is your weakness.

You said that the DE environment is not the right place to teach trail braking because it is not covered in a classroom (nor are other techniques including rain line), there are not cones and students are not critiqued from outside the car. In spite of the fact that I have run and taught with fewer clubs than you have, my experience is different. Between the clubs I have run with and the cheif driving instructors I have spoken with for DE groups, I can say that ~half of them I know of do classromm that includes topics such as trail braking, line, rain line, throttle steering, etc. Many even do specific excercises to work on these aspects. I feel that in-car observation is at least as good as the outside observation technique used by Skippy. Do I conclude that 50% of all DE groups do this - NO. I conclude that SOME do - my sample size is not big enough to say anything more. It is folly to sample 10 and say "all DE groups do this" or "No one does that".

Here is my point - If you want to continue to improve on the track, you need to question everything you see and hear. You have to be brutally honest about your strengths and your weak points as well. Just because you see something once does not make it universally true, especailly if you try to apply it to other people.

I am not trying to take shots at you - this has been one of the better discussions here in ages. You are at the stage where you can really start to learn and experience what happens in a car, or you can get caught up in your current skills and accomplishments, never to get better. I hope you break through this stage and progess. Looking forward to meeting you at the track soon.

Mark

B-Line

Thanks Finn,

It's nice to be back... <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

B-Line

Mark,

Very well said.

I shouldn't project my experience on others. I just remember having it drilled into my head, brake in a straight line, as a rookie.

And I look forward to meeting you at the track as well.
btw, I don't really instruct yet. I just got qualified in Florida before I left, now I have to start all over.

Vinny '98 3.8 C2S

&lt;&lt; I was referring to Seth's description of how horrible the drivers were at the DE's he's attended. I was attempting to reassure him that on the West coast, that was not the case.&gt;&gt;

OK, that makes sense.

But we're better looking! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

SundayDriver

[quote]Originally posted by Vinny '98 3.8 C2S:
<strong>&lt;&lt; I was referring to Seth's description of how horrible the drivers were at the DE's he's attended. I was attempting to reassure him that on the West coast, that was not the case.&gt;&gt;

OK, that makes sense.

But we're better looking! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You proabably are, but that's not saying much cuz you haven't seen us.