Marco Polo

The sub belt, in and of itself, is not designed to keep the driver from hitting the roof in rollover. It's original purpose is to prevent the driver from sliding under the lap belt in a frontal impact, that's the "submarine" reference. Secondly, it keeps the lap belt down across the driver's pelvis. Otherwise, cinching down the shoulder harnesses would draw the lap belt up over the driver's abdomen. In a rollover <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> , the lap belts and shoulder harnesses are more important that the sub. belt.

On a different point, the six-point approach has one virtue that the five-point lacks: more than one 5-point driver has climbed out of a frontal impact shunt doubled over in pain from a compression of the groinal variety.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Gents, Kim is right. The sub belt has one job - to keep the lap belts from sliding over your soft midsection. The fact that the might help you not slide out and under the front of the belts is a side benefit.

I don't inderstand Danny's comment about the shoulder harness staying tight to keep you in place. Must have been some pretty slick seats you sat on. I know that with my stock leather sport seats and my Sparco race seats, it's the shoulder harness that is the tightest and that keeps me glued to the seat.

The sub belt should be tight enough that it barely reaches the lap buckle. That should be the first one fastened. Then you should fasten the lap belt and cinch it down tight. Then you should do the shoulders and tighten them as much as you can stand - those belts WILL stretch in case of a hit.

See the DIY on my web page for more info.

E. J.

Marco Polo

...even down to choosing the same graemlin!

PeanutinCA

Kim,
the belts work wonders. My first outing this weekend gone and no more pushing oneself back into the seat mid corner(s). I definite must!!

I don't dispute what people say about the sub belt to stop you from sliding out (under) the harness, but it does seem a little impossible. think of the impact (I can having been in a street head on) and the inertia is forward if not first and upward. Seems a little odd that A) lap belts mounted to the floor would ride up that much (but still possible I guess) and b) you could bend and slide enough to exit underneath the belts?

But, anything is possible? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Cheers,
Dylan.

DJF1

[quote] I don't inderstand Danny's comment about the shoulder harness staying tight to keep you in place. Must have been some pretty slick seats you sat on. I know that with my stock leather sport seats and my Sparco race seats, it's the shoulder harness that is the tightest and that keeps me glued to the seat.

<hr></blockquote> . I'm not very elequent in my explanation I guess... The subbelt mounted in front of the seat bue to the extreme angle from this mounting what it does is that it does not let the lower part of the shoulder harness and the side harness to be one with your body. It literally pulls due to the angle the lower parts of the belt away from you. If the 5th point mounts as it should from the middle of the seat and the belt comes straight up it does not have an angle when cliping on. So you can effectively tighten all the belts to hold your body in place and the sub correctly keeps the belts in the correct position. I Imagine with your Sparco's you have the sub mounted in the middle as you can pass through the seat the 5th belt.
I made a horrible illustration of this on paint as you can see below... Sorry for this but my artistic talents are very limited!



I hope you can see now what I'm trying to say. The seats on the Turbo were the normal seats that we all have on our 993's. I can tell you that my lower body was not held properly as the central buckle because of the extreme angle of the sub belt was effectively away from my body... The 6 point mounting is much better in my opinion with the side mounting and can be used effectively with stock seats.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Danny, I understood what you meant. In response to your explanation I will say that I agree that the front of the seat wrap around the cushion mounting can cause the sub belt to pull the lap belt away from the occupant. I never had a problem with this mounting system as I am not as skinny as some others and the belts remained in contact with me at all times. In fact, As I would tighten the shoulder belts tighter, I found that it would pull the sub belt tighter to the front of the car which did an even better job of pulling the waist belts down over my waist and pelvis.

We jsut must have different body types or the setup in the car you rode in was not as optimized as my previous setup. You are right that with the Sparcos I have drilled the sub belts directly below the seat and they go through the slit in the seat. I still don't have a problem with the previous method other than it not being as secured. See <a href="http://www.pcarracing.homestead.com/harness.html" target="_blank">this</a> page from my page for my explanation of thsi mounting method.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

E. J.

Todd B

Finished the installation of my DAS bar tonight. I had a terrible time with rear bolt on the drivers side lining up. After pushing on the bar, wedging wood, etc... I gave up. Ok, it's not very comfortable sitting in the foot wells of the back seat when you're 6'3". I ended up removing both front bolts and then positioning the bar for both rears to line up. Then lined up the fronts, on the drivers side I had to use some brute force, but it was far easier to line up the holes up front then the rears. So just another approach to install.

To remove the side panels, I ended up removing the back panel (with speakers). This made removal of the sides very easy. The back panel was only held on with 4 screws.

Now I need to figure out which seats to get... or should I say an excuse to make the trek to OG Racing

Todd

Marco Polo

Another possible problem with running the sub belt over the front of the seat (as opposed to straight down through a port in the seat) is that it will tend to tilt the cam-lock so that the top presses into the driver's gut. This is probably only a comfort issue, but, hey, comfort counts.

DJF1

Duh! I should have checked your page! LOL

I'm rather large myself and at 6'1 and 275lbs not a skinny mini! From what I can see your set up looks better, the set up I tried was with one belt bolted infront and middle of the seat. maybe that is where the problem could be. Also something else that is interesting, the 6th point harness belt I got from Schroth is a completely different design than your 6th point pictured. Mine do have to mount on the sides of the seat and when in use they are under my legs coming off directly inbetween them. They work extremely well and the whole system keeps me firmly planted on the seat. Also the seats you have I have never seen them on a 993! I only saw them on the previous generation 911's. Did they come with your car?

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Also something else that is interesting, the 6th point harness belt I got from Schroth is a completely different design than your 6th point pictured. Mine do have to mount on the sides of the seat and when in use they are under my legs coming off directly inbetween them. They work extremely well and the whole system keeps me firmly planted on the seat. Also the seats you have I have never seen them on a 993! I only saw them on the previous generation 911's. Did they come with your car?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know what they say about the shoe fitting and if it works... I think your setup sounds fine and sounds like it works for you which is important. I can see how a single sub belt mounted in the center could be worse than my diy setup too.

Anyway, as for my seats, they are the 95 sport seat model. They went to the hardback model in 96 - and to be honest, I much prefer mine. It has higher side bolsters while the hard back seats use the wider shoulder section to hold you in. My seats fit me very well - not much side to side room.

Todd,

If you're 6'3" like me, you will want the EVO2s - all the other Sparcos are too tight for me - but you may be skinier to. Anyway, at that height headroom might be an issue. I bolt mine directly to the floor to save 2 inches from the sliders. It is a PITA to put them in, but it works well. I had to have the side mounts specially made. You are more then welcome to stop by the house to see them when you make the trek to OG. I would be happy to meet you there if you want. I live about 20 minutes from there and am frinds with all the guys there. I have my stock seats in now, but you could see them in the garage and teh roll bar stays in all the time.

They are opened on Saturdays too.

E. J.

Marco Polo

Another question re: Schroth harnesses:

Above it was suggested, if I followed the message correctly, that the shoulder harness with the Schroth label should go on the inboard side. Is that strap different in any other way from the unlabeled one?

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
[QB]...Anyway, as for my seats, they are the 95 sport seat model. They went to the hardback model in 96...QB]<hr></blockquote>

Just FYI & to confuse, I have -95 (late production though) and my sport seats are hardback.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>Just FYI & to confuse, I have -95 (late production though) and my sport seats are hardback.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Finn,

Did they come with the car? If yes, what's your serial number?

E. J.

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>

Finn,

Did they come with the car? If yes, what's your serial number?

E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>

E.J.

Yes they did (they're in the options).

Serial number is 2973. If I remember correctly, production was 10/94.

Flying Finn

E.J.

Correction, built 12/94.