HID Group Buy Installation - Caution ?
03-07-2003 | 01:36 PM
#1
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From: Upstate NY
HID Group Buy Installation - Caution ?
LiteSwap Group Buy Folks,
I noticed several people talking about wiring the 993 HID install to keep the headlight bucket "plug in" and "plug out" feature and not have the wires trailing out the back of the modified headlight.
This is a great idea and I'm sure its mechanically feasible, but correct me on something. That connector in the fender well that plugs into the rear of the headlight bucket is designed to handle the present current draw of the high and low beams and voltage of around 14 vdc. This HID conversion to the low beams uses lower current at a much higher voltage to the HID lamp, correct?
If you use the factory connector (the stationary one in the fender well), you'd be feeding (through) it with secondary voltage from the transformer (ballast) at what voltage? 5,000? 10,000? Is the factory connector rated to handle this voltage? Are the dielectric qualities of the connector adequate to prevent arcing and short circuits? In other words, is the connector originally designed for 14 vdc adequate to provide insulation for several thousand volts? Current draw is not an issue, of course.
Maybe I'm all wet, but someone may want to address this, before someone either zaps themselves, the electronics in their car or cooks their connections. I can only imagine what 5,000 volts (?) going to ground will do to automotive computers and electronics.
I don't want to raise an alarm unnecessarily and cause a lot of needless discussion about this and I did email Eric at liteswap this AM, but have not heard back. I was concerned that some people may be doing this install over the weekend - my kit won't ship for a week or so.
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
I noticed several people talking about wiring the 993 HID install to keep the headlight bucket "plug in" and "plug out" feature and not have the wires trailing out the back of the modified headlight.
This is a great idea and I'm sure its mechanically feasible, but correct me on something. That connector in the fender well that plugs into the rear of the headlight bucket is designed to handle the present current draw of the high and low beams and voltage of around 14 vdc. This HID conversion to the low beams uses lower current at a much higher voltage to the HID lamp, correct?
If you use the factory connector (the stationary one in the fender well), you'd be feeding (through) it with secondary voltage from the transformer (ballast) at what voltage? 5,000? 10,000? Is the factory connector rated to handle this voltage? Are the dielectric qualities of the connector adequate to prevent arcing and short circuits? In other words, is the connector originally designed for 14 vdc adequate to provide insulation for several thousand volts? Current draw is not an issue, of course.
Maybe I'm all wet, but someone may want to address this, before someone either zaps themselves, the electronics in their car or cooks their connections. I can only imagine what 5,000 volts (?) going to ground will do to automotive computers and electronics.
I don't want to raise an alarm unnecessarily and cause a lot of needless discussion about this and I did email Eric at liteswap this AM, but have not heard back. I was concerned that some people may be doing this install over the weekend - my kit won't ship for a week or so.
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
03-07-2003 | 02:02 PM
#3
Drifting
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From: Indiana
I have thought of that too. There are a couple of other wiring issues that need to be looked at besides this. I haven't started looking into all these things yet because I don't have a kit yet.
But, the factory Litronics set up uses a separate ballast like what is being provided in the Catz set up. Additionally the Litronics put the ignitor in the head light assembly. It is my understanding that the pin connector does not change from the Litronics to the regular headlight and that once the Ballast is online the Litronics is plug and play system. I don't know the volts the litronics use but I will assume it is similar to the Catz. If this is the case there should not be a problem. I am going to cross this bridge when I get the kit and get a feel for how the ignitor can be installed in the headlight assembly. I don't particularly like it just being loose in there and what to trouble shoot that issue also.
I am in no hurry to immediately install the HID and plan on taking a very through approach.
But, the factory Litronics set up uses a separate ballast like what is being provided in the Catz set up. Additionally the Litronics put the ignitor in the head light assembly. It is my understanding that the pin connector does not change from the Litronics to the regular headlight and that once the Ballast is online the Litronics is plug and play system. I don't know the volts the litronics use but I will assume it is similar to the Catz. If this is the case there should not be a problem. I am going to cross this bridge when I get the kit and get a feel for how the ignitor can be installed in the headlight assembly. I don't particularly like it just being loose in there and what to trouble shoot that issue also.
I am in no hurry to immediately install the HID and plan on taking a very through approach.
03-07-2003 | 02:40 PM
#5
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Oh that's swell! I finally pull the trigger and sign-up for these awesome new lights and wham, now I find that it's going to melt down my entire electric system. That's some true cost savings!
Guess I'll wait for all the more knowledgeable members to get it all straightened out before I receive and install my kit....
Keith
Guess I'll wait for all the more knowledgeable members to get it all straightened out before I receive and install my kit....
Keith
03-07-2003 | 03:49 PM
#6
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From: Upstate NY
Keith,
I'm sure the kit from Eric is fine and 100% safe if installed per the instructions. My only concern is using the stock connector set-up at the different (higher) voltage.
I am not trying to alarm anyone or cause them to stay away from this useful upgrade.
Sounds like Brian is going to research this. If Porsche uses the same connector to carry the higher voltage to the OEM Litronics option, then using it for this aftermarket install should be fine.
Perhaps someone could check these p/n's?
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
I'm sure the kit from Eric is fine and 100% safe if installed per the instructions. My only concern is using the stock connector set-up at the different (higher) voltage.
I am not trying to alarm anyone or cause them to stay away from this useful upgrade.
Sounds like Brian is going to research this. If Porsche uses the same connector to carry the higher voltage to the OEM Litronics option, then using it for this aftermarket install should be fine.
Perhaps someone could check these p/n's?
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
03-07-2003 | 05:25 PM
#7
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Joined: May 2001
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From: Cranleigh,England
Okay guys, allow me to striaghten you out on a few points...
1) as far as I read the liteswap install was to put both parts inside the light, so the connector still carries the same voltage, but will have to sustain an inrush current around 20 amps for a short time at switch on.
2)The voltage for the bulbs is nearer 500volts. It is higher to create the strike, but then
reduces down to this for running. The voltage between the ignitor and ballast is at this 500v and stays constant (the bit in the back of the light does the step-up).
Well, that is how the Litronics ones are supposed to work anyway, I don't know the design of the liteswap ones.
3) The wiring for the litronics does actually change, but only because the lights use different pins in the connector (presumablyto ensure you don't plug a non-litronic light into a litronic equipped car and get dangerous results). You can check this in the wiring diagrams.
4) The autolamps installs have been running in my and other cars here in the UK for around 2 years now with no problems. These are wrapped in foam and wedged securely behind the lights. I would therefore expect these liteswap lights installed in the same manner to be just as reliable (assuming same quality).
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
I'm only trying to help here guys.
Dan and myself went threough all this lot 2 years ago, so we know roughly what your going through.
Whatever way you decide to install them, I'm sure you will not be disappointed with the results (as long as its safe !).
Cheers,
John.
1) as far as I read the liteswap install was to put both parts inside the light, so the connector still carries the same voltage, but will have to sustain an inrush current around 20 amps for a short time at switch on.
2)The voltage for the bulbs is nearer 500volts. It is higher to create the strike, but then
reduces down to this for running. The voltage between the ignitor and ballast is at this 500v and stays constant (the bit in the back of the light does the step-up).
Well, that is how the Litronics ones are supposed to work anyway, I don't know the design of the liteswap ones.
3) The wiring for the litronics does actually change, but only because the lights use different pins in the connector (presumablyto ensure you don't plug a non-litronic light into a litronic equipped car and get dangerous results). You can check this in the wiring diagrams.
4) The autolamps installs have been running in my and other cars here in the UK for around 2 years now with no problems. These are wrapped in foam and wedged securely behind the lights. I would therefore expect these liteswap lights installed in the same manner to be just as reliable (assuming same quality).
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
I'm only trying to help here guys.
Dan and myself went threough all this lot 2 years ago, so we know roughly what your going through.
Whatever way you decide to install them, I'm sure you will not be disappointed with the results (as long as its safe !).
Cheers,
John.
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03-07-2003 | 05:45 PM
#8
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Agree completely with John here. My installation is approaching 1 year mark and no problem at all and just a photo to show HID and PIAA driving lights. <img src="http://gallery.rennlist.com/albums/pk/102_0276.thumb.jpg" alt=" - " />
03-07-2003 | 06:02 PM
#9
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From: Indiana
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John W:
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't think both the igniter and ballast are going to fit inside the head light assembly. Doesn't the Ballast sit out side the head light assembly in the Litronics?
If the pin connectors do not handle the voltage, why not switch out the pin connectors to the pin connectors used in the factory Litronics?
I am speaking from the hip here as I have not studied the factory manuals and wiring diagram yet. I have communicated with Dan about this install and he seems to think from his experience that depending on the Catz kit it will be possible to get a litronic like install.
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't think both the igniter and ballast are going to fit inside the head light assembly. Doesn't the Ballast sit out side the head light assembly in the Litronics?
If the pin connectors do not handle the voltage, why not switch out the pin connectors to the pin connectors used in the factory Litronics?
I am speaking from the hip here as I have not studied the factory manuals and wiring diagram yet. I have communicated with Dan about this install and he seems to think from his experience that depending on the Catz kit it will be possible to get a litronic like install.
03-07-2003 | 07:48 PM
#10
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Joined: May 2001
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From: Cranleigh,England
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by bet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John W:
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't think both the igniter and ballast are going to fit inside the head light assembly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Err, maybe I didn't explain myself, or bad choice of words. I said connected to, not inside. What I mean is (and if you look at my pics that i've previously posted links to it will help) you will see that the ignitor hangs out the back of the light unit, and is wrapped in foam.
The wiring needs to be sufficiently long enough (around 250 - 300mm) to allow you to place the ballast in the wing as you offer up the light ready to reinsert it. IMO this part is the most fiddly of the whole operation.
Using these liteswap kits I guess you would fit one part (ballast) in the light, and then have the other part (ignitor) outside.
To explain further, the wiring that normally goes to the bulb would now feed the ignitor. This will exit the rear cover where the ignitor is. You will then have some wiring between your ignitor and ballast, which goes back in through the same hole. Then the wire from the ballast goes on to the bulb.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Doesn't the Ballast sit out side the head light assembly in the Litronics?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes it does. It is mounted inside the trunk. Look at the diy for OEM litronics install on <a href="http://www.p-car.com," target="_blank">www.p-car.com,</a> or if you have the service manuals there are details in there too.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
If the pin connectors do not handle the voltage, why not switch out the pin connectors to the pin connectors used in the factory Litronics?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">If you look at your connector you will see it is only part populated. Anyway, all of the contacts are the same.
Just as an asside the extra ways are used in europe for the electric headlight beam height adjusters.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
I am speaking from the hip here as I have not studied the factory manuals and wiring diagram yet. I have communicated with Dan about this install and he seems to think from his experience that depending on the Catz kit it will be possible to get a litronic like install.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brian, I fully agree with Dan.
You will see from my previous comments that I have compared my (insert name here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) install with a turbo S fitted with OE Litronics, and there was no noticeable difference. I can't see why there would be any difference with the liteswap kit assuming the quality is similar, and the bulbs mount to the correct depth into the lights (as I posted before this affects the focus through the lens).
Have a good weekend all.
Cheers,
John.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John W:
I still think the safest install is for the entire setup to be connected to the light, with none of the parts in the trunk. It keeps the upgrade completely reversible, and maintains all the same wiring until you get inside the light.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't think both the igniter and ballast are going to fit inside the head light assembly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Err, maybe I didn't explain myself, or bad choice of words. I said connected to, not inside. What I mean is (and if you look at my pics that i've previously posted links to it will help) you will see that the ignitor hangs out the back of the light unit, and is wrapped in foam.
The wiring needs to be sufficiently long enough (around 250 - 300mm) to allow you to place the ballast in the wing as you offer up the light ready to reinsert it. IMO this part is the most fiddly of the whole operation.
Using these liteswap kits I guess you would fit one part (ballast) in the light, and then have the other part (ignitor) outside.
To explain further, the wiring that normally goes to the bulb would now feed the ignitor. This will exit the rear cover where the ignitor is. You will then have some wiring between your ignitor and ballast, which goes back in through the same hole. Then the wire from the ballast goes on to the bulb.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Doesn't the Ballast sit out side the head light assembly in the Litronics?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes it does. It is mounted inside the trunk. Look at the diy for OEM litronics install on <a href="http://www.p-car.com," target="_blank">www.p-car.com,</a> or if you have the service manuals there are details in there too.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
If the pin connectors do not handle the voltage, why not switch out the pin connectors to the pin connectors used in the factory Litronics?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">If you look at your connector you will see it is only part populated. Anyway, all of the contacts are the same.
Just as an asside the extra ways are used in europe for the electric headlight beam height adjusters.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
I am speaking from the hip here as I have not studied the factory manuals and wiring diagram yet. I have communicated with Dan about this install and he seems to think from his experience that depending on the Catz kit it will be possible to get a litronic like install.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brian, I fully agree with Dan.
You will see from my previous comments that I have compared my (insert name here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) install with a turbo S fitted with OE Litronics, and there was no noticeable difference. I can't see why there would be any difference with the liteswap kit assuming the quality is similar, and the bulbs mount to the correct depth into the lights (as I posted before this affects the focus through the lens).
Have a good weekend all.
Cheers,
John.
03-07-2003 | 08:11 PM
#11
Racer
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 466
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From: Maryland
Hi guys,
sorry for the delayed response, I was out this morning/afternoon.
There should be no additional strain on your electical system or wiring. The ballasts takes a 12VDC (14 when car is on) from the factory plug. The ballast THEN acts as a power inverter to output to the bulbs. Now if there WAS a heat issue, it would be for the ballast, not your wiring.
sorry for the delayed response, I was out this morning/afternoon.
There should be no additional strain on your electical system or wiring. The ballasts takes a 12VDC (14 when car is on) from the factory plug. The ballast THEN acts as a power inverter to output to the bulbs. Now if there WAS a heat issue, it would be for the ballast, not your wiring.
03-07-2003 | 08:58 PM
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Mike
I think you raise a valid concern about using the oem connector to handle the ballast to igniter load. However, in theory it shouldn't be a problem since, as Brian noted, Litronics does just that. I would check the proximity in Litronics of the 2 HID connections w/in the connector & try to replicate that setup. There are also a few other issues to be resolved.
The bottom line is, as was the case w/many of the mods we now readily accept, until someone takes the plunge, none of us will know. The fall back is a rougher, but proven installation, so the downside is not great.
I'm seriously thinking of buying this kit to try a "Litronics" install. However, I'll need another pair of headlights ... anyone got some for sale?
I think you raise a valid concern about using the oem connector to handle the ballast to igniter load. However, in theory it shouldn't be a problem since, as Brian noted, Litronics does just that. I would check the proximity in Litronics of the 2 HID connections w/in the connector & try to replicate that setup. There are also a few other issues to be resolved.
The bottom line is, as was the case w/many of the mods we now readily accept, until someone takes the plunge, none of us will know. The fall back is a rougher, but proven installation, so the downside is not great.
I'm seriously thinking of buying this kit to try a "Litronics" install. However, I'll need another pair of headlights ... anyone got some for sale?
03-07-2003 | 10:11 PM
#13
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From: Upstate NY
Eric,
You explained to me on the phone, and I understand, how power is supplied to the ballast. My concern was not heat, but the voltage from the SECONDARY side of the ballast (high voltage output side) being fed thru the factory "quick" connector that is in the fender well.
My question was if this connector, both male and female pins, have adequate spacing and insulation characteristics to prevent arcing with this (much) higher voltage.
I would like to know what the voltage on this secondary side is.
It would be fun to do a "Litronics" type of installation. From what Brian, Dan and John W. say it appears that the Porsche HID set-up uses the same connectors that we have. If this is the case, the rest is mechanical.
I will call my Porsche parts guy on Monday and ask him to sleuth this out or perhaps someone with more PET ability than me could scope this out. If there is only one p/n for this male-female connector for both headlight options, then we're "jake".
Lets work on this and see if we can get this install to work AND retain the "slide in and slide out" headlight feature.
We are a large electrical distributor, so I can come up with any kind of connector and our shop can modify the existing connector if needed.
I have plenty of time to play with this - maybe more than some of you in warmer climates. I don't see driving mine for at least another month or more.
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
You explained to me on the phone, and I understand, how power is supplied to the ballast. My concern was not heat, but the voltage from the SECONDARY side of the ballast (high voltage output side) being fed thru the factory "quick" connector that is in the fender well.
My question was if this connector, both male and female pins, have adequate spacing and insulation characteristics to prevent arcing with this (much) higher voltage.
I would like to know what the voltage on this secondary side is.
It would be fun to do a "Litronics" type of installation. From what Brian, Dan and John W. say it appears that the Porsche HID set-up uses the same connectors that we have. If this is the case, the rest is mechanical.
I will call my Porsche parts guy on Monday and ask him to sleuth this out or perhaps someone with more PET ability than me could scope this out. If there is only one p/n for this male-female connector for both headlight options, then we're "jake".
Lets work on this and see if we can get this install to work AND retain the "slide in and slide out" headlight feature.
We are a large electrical distributor, so I can come up with any kind of connector and our shop can modify the existing connector if needed.
I have plenty of time to play with this - maybe more than some of you in warmer climates. I don't see driving mine for at least another month or more.
Mike Cap
1997 C2
Arena Red
03-08-2003 | 12:11 AM
#14
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From: Indiana
Mike I am with you. I plan on taking my time and playing with this install to attempt to get a OEM type install. I am going to try and get together with Dan someplace to take advantage of his experience.
03-08-2003 | 02:10 AM
#15
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by bet:
<strong>I am going to try and get together with Dan someplace to take advantage of his experience.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brian
Experience? Cut the BS. You're just looking for an excuse to hang w/a brother lawyer, throw back a few, talk P-cars & DEs and, maybe, if we don't blow up your car, get better lights. Hey, sounds good to me.
We could use a convenient Litronics car to study & photograph. Anyone have one handy?
<strong>I am going to try and get together with Dan someplace to take advantage of his experience.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brian
Experience? Cut the BS. You're just looking for an excuse to hang w/a brother lawyer, throw back a few, talk P-cars & DEs and, maybe, if we don't blow up your car, get better lights. Hey, sounds good to me.
We could use a convenient Litronics car to study & photograph. Anyone have one handy?