Curious how do you guys fair against e46 m3s??
09-09-2004, 04:38 PM
#107
Burning Brakes
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A little off the subject but two people here at the office had the new 7 series and said it was in the shop for computer problems more than they drive it. Needless to say they both drive S430 Mercedes now. I like the M3 but was afraid of the engine problems that reoccur all the time, fun car to drive and looks really good kind of best of both worlds comfort and power. I am waiting for my Bonus at the end of November and its a new S 997 for me, I cant wait I wish I could ask for it early 
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09-09-2004, 04:47 PM
#108
Race Director
Originally Posted by GTR 993
I am waiting for my Bonus at the end of November and its a new S 997 for me, I cant wait I wish I could ask for it early .
.A six-figure bonus!
That's a great place to work. Congratulations.CP
09-09-2004, 05:18 PM
#109
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Heck I know some ibankers here in NY that make 7 figure bonuses (or used to at least)
On the M3 vs 993 cab race, not sure if you were close enough but could drafting have helped?
Statistically speaking, if you take a modded 95 933 (a well matched intake, exhaust and chip combo) you'll see around 260-265 rwhp on a dynojet. Most stock E46 M3's make about 280-285 on the dynojet.
95 993 with 200 lb driver weighs about 3200-3300 lbs, so let's say 3250
E46 M3 with 200 lbs driver weighs about 3600-3700 lbs, so let's say 3650
Power to weight ratios:
Stock 95 993 - 3250/240 = 13.54 lbs/rwhp
Modded 95 993 - 3250/260 = 12.5 lbs/rwhp
E46 M3 - 3650/280 = 13 lbs/rwhp
Now that being said, a modded 993 will have most of it's power in the top end where the M3 has a better torque curve (better technology in that gem of an engine, as long as it doesn't blow up). Better be in the right gear if you're driving a 993
On the M3 vs 993 cab race, not sure if you were close enough but could drafting have helped?
Statistically speaking, if you take a modded 95 933 (a well matched intake, exhaust and chip combo) you'll see around 260-265 rwhp on a dynojet. Most stock E46 M3's make about 280-285 on the dynojet.
95 993 with 200 lb driver weighs about 3200-3300 lbs, so let's say 3250
E46 M3 with 200 lbs driver weighs about 3600-3700 lbs, so let's say 3650
Power to weight ratios:
Stock 95 993 - 3250/240 = 13.54 lbs/rwhp
Modded 95 993 - 3250/260 = 12.5 lbs/rwhp
E46 M3 - 3650/280 = 13 lbs/rwhp
Now that being said, a modded 993 will have most of it's power in the top end where the M3 has a better torque curve (better technology in that gem of an engine, as long as it doesn't blow up). Better be in the right gear if you're driving a 993
09-09-2004, 05:58 PM
#110
Instructor
Thread Starter
hey kinda off topic but flatair do you know if any of your ibanker friends can give me a job? i'm currently trading treasury bonds and i hate my company. recent college grad from a good school too. 
09-09-2004, 07:23 PM
#113
Race Director
Originally Posted by rmani
thank you; my email is: rmani81@yahoo.comCP
09-09-2004, 07:51 PM
#114
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Ok so work is slow today, and I got to thinking about the M3 and a typical modified 993 (non varioram) since they're such different beasts. The 993 makes close (but no cigar) to the stock E46's peak power on the dyno. The 993 weighs about 400 lbs less. M3 has a better torque curve. M3 seems to be faster than 993. So I decided to do a powerband comparison, and here's what I came up with. These are taken from actual SAE corrected dynojet plots, traced over by me to make the curves more visible (weather factors can make a difference but this is just a rough comparison for fun, so no nitpicking please):
The first image is a stock E46 M3 over its rev band with a 993 dyno curve overlaid, both to scale. Notice the M3's powerband goes MUCH longer due to its much higher rev limit, and notice it has significantly more low end torque.
Then I wanted to compare effective power curves adjusted to compensate for the weight difference in the cars, so I took the ratio 3250/3650 (993 weight/M3 weight) and multiplied the M3's power curve by that (2nd image). This effectively shrunk the advantage the M3 had over the 993's peak power, but we still have to take into account the wider rev band of the M3.
The third image takes the 2nd weight-compensated image and then stretches the 993's power curve to match the width M3's power curve (i.e. equivelant would be if we geared the M3 lower or 993 higher to cover a same range of mph in a given gear). Notice how now the 'effective' power of the M3 comes out ahead over the entire power band even though it's a heavier car. Having a wide rev band helps.
Just food for thought
flat
The first image is a stock E46 M3 over its rev band with a 993 dyno curve overlaid, both to scale. Notice the M3's powerband goes MUCH longer due to its much higher rev limit, and notice it has significantly more low end torque.
Then I wanted to compare effective power curves adjusted to compensate for the weight difference in the cars, so I took the ratio 3250/3650 (993 weight/M3 weight) and multiplied the M3's power curve by that (2nd image). This effectively shrunk the advantage the M3 had over the 993's peak power, but we still have to take into account the wider rev band of the M3.
The third image takes the 2nd weight-compensated image and then stretches the 993's power curve to match the width M3's power curve (i.e. equivelant would be if we geared the M3 lower or 993 higher to cover a same range of mph in a given gear). Notice how now the 'effective' power of the M3 comes out ahead over the entire power band even though it's a heavier car. Having a wide rev band helps.
Just food for thought
flat
09-09-2004, 07:56 PM
#115
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by D.G..
Followed an E46 onto Sabercat drive in Fremont. Both of us kept a reasonable speed through the initial S turn.
How are you doing Dave? Haven't heard from you for a looongggg time...
09-09-2004, 08:43 PM
#116
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Hi Suwipin,
I've been buried in work. I heard you got a new car. Congrats. And new seats? I'm jealous!
WRT the E46 race, the guy definitely knew I was there. And drafting could have come into play, but wouldn't explain the results on it's own.
It is possible that the E46 relied on his low-end torque when I was already in my power band. But there was no time during which he pulled away from me. At all times either I was pulling up on him, or we were pulling evenly. He did shift at least once, so I know he went all the way through his power band. This is not the result that I expected.
The wide torque curve issue is interesting. A wide torque curve is useful in that it helps you get to your peak power range more quickly, but is no substitute for actually being there already. Once you are in your peak power band, the thing that matters is how far down the curve you fall when you shift at redline. Hum, I wonder if that could be plotted?? (2nd + 3rd gear in 993 -vs- E46 starting low in power band)
I've been buried in work. I heard you got a new car. Congrats. And new seats? I'm jealous!
WRT the E46 race, the guy definitely knew I was there. And drafting could have come into play, but wouldn't explain the results on it's own.
It is possible that the E46 relied on his low-end torque when I was already in my power band. But there was no time during which he pulled away from me. At all times either I was pulling up on him, or we were pulling evenly. He did shift at least once, so I know he went all the way through his power band. This is not the result that I expected.
The wide torque curve issue is interesting. A wide torque curve is useful in that it helps you get to your peak power range more quickly, but is no substitute for actually being there already. Once you are in your peak power band, the thing that matters is how far down the curve you fall when you shift at redline. Hum, I wonder if that could be plotted?? (2nd + 3rd gear in 993 -vs- E46 starting low in power band)
Last edited by D.G..; 09-10-2004 at 02:25 AM.
09-09-2004, 09:53 PM
#117
Instructor
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by CP
Is 81 your birth year? If yes, lucky you. A 993 at the tender young age of 23. Enjoy the youth, the energy, the optimism, and the bright future ahead of you.
CP
CP
I hope the future will be bright. Believe me I work hard enough in hopes that it will continue to pay off. Got murdered in the Bond Market today though
O well tomorrow's another day.
09-10-2004, 09:50 AM
#118
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Flat,
What you really need to do is plot the thrust curves when applied to the gearing / final drive etc for gear against road speed. This will give the maxium thrust availble at speed in each gear, add a rolling resistance / air resistance curve etc. Did write a little program (similar to the quarter scorcher) to do this a while back which was useful racing bikes. Will try and dig it out sometime.
Al.
What you really need to do is plot the thrust curves when applied to the gearing / final drive etc for gear against road speed. This will give the maxium thrust availble at speed in each gear, add a rolling resistance / air resistance curve etc. Did write a little program (similar to the quarter scorcher) to do this a while back which was useful racing bikes. Will try and dig it out sometime.
Al.
09-10-2004, 11:29 AM
#119
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I raced a E46 M3 conv. from at redlight and there was no doubt the 993 was faster when it switched to green. I spun a little but nothing like he did. Then I was just ahead of him all the way up to 250km/h when he overtook me. We came up to a roundabout and slowed down. He took the roundabout good but not nearly as good as I did and then a long straight opened up. We both floored it and I was amazed I almost overtook him after the roundabout but the topspeed on the M3 is faster then the 993 so he slowly began to dissapear before having to slow down for the next roundabout where we stopped and talked a couple of minutes.. He was amazed over the 993's power!
09-10-2004, 01:21 PM
#120
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Al,
That's more or less what the third graph is, but I've also been toying around with a freeware program called cartest that does a pretty good job of simulating automobile acceleration. I'll run a few numbers through it and get back to ya
Brad
That's more or less what the third graph is, but I've also been toying around with a freeware program called cartest that does a pretty good job of simulating automobile acceleration. I'll run a few numbers through it and get back to ya
Brad