problems with mixing spoilers?
09-14-2002, 07:13 PM
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problems with mixing spoilers?
What adverse consequences would follow from installing the RS splitters and rocker panels but not the RS rear wing, using the stock retractable spoiler?
09-14-2002, 07:39 PM
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Mark,
I would think you'd have more problems if you had the rear wing and NO front spoiler.??? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
I would think you'd have more problems if you had the rear wing and NO front spoiler.??? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
09-14-2002, 10:06 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Mark Preston:
<strong>What adverse consequences would follow from installing the RS splitters and rocker panels but not the RS rear wing, using the stock retractable spoiler?</strong><hr></blockquote>
ifn u do dat, bubba, den yall will be havn too mucho downfarce on da front an nun on da back. Y'all kno dat meems y'all won;t be able to git it up no moar.
Yur fren,
JimBob
<strong>What adverse consequences would follow from installing the RS splitters and rocker panels but not the RS rear wing, using the stock retractable spoiler?</strong><hr></blockquote>
ifn u do dat, bubba, den yall will be havn too mucho downfarce on da front an nun on da back. Y'all kno dat meems y'all won;t be able to git it up no moar.
Yur fren,
JimBob
09-15-2002, 09:49 AM
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The front splitters, side skirts and wing reduce lift to 0 at 170 mph....this is not the case with the stock splitters, "side skirts" and moveable tail. Having driven a 993 at speed (130mph in a sweeper at Willow Springs Raceway, with and without the 993RS tail, the RS tail makes a big difference in car stability. I am not so certain about the affects of the stock front splitters and side skirts. With the fairly solid aerodynamics of the 993 stock body, and the fact that the 993RS front splitters are not that radical compared to the stock splitters, I think you could get away with installing the RS tail as a stand alone...but that is not your question is it.
I think (IMHO) you could install the RS front splitters and side skirts sans tail and be perfectly fine. Also note, if you are getting the RS items from Gert <a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">http://www.carnewal.com</a> , the price for all three items is a significant savings from buying them piece meal. I believe the complete set up from Gert is about $2,900 US. In addition, the fit and finish of the OEM parts may save you money as a painter will probably be able to get the Factory parts prepared in less time than US aftermarket suppliers. I say probably, because I have not seen the 993RS aero products from MA Shaw, and others. I did purchase an aftermarket tail(not from MA Shaw) for $450. By the time I got it installed on the car, prepared and painted, the cost had gone up to $1,000 for the tail. Would paint and prep be less for the factory tail, maybe. I need you to experiment and tell us what you discover! I love the 993RS look...the RS mechanicals over stock, are the makings of a very long post, not to be done today.
I think (IMHO) you could install the RS front splitters and side skirts sans tail and be perfectly fine. Also note, if you are getting the RS items from Gert <a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">http://www.carnewal.com</a> , the price for all three items is a significant savings from buying them piece meal. I believe the complete set up from Gert is about $2,900 US. In addition, the fit and finish of the OEM parts may save you money as a painter will probably be able to get the Factory parts prepared in less time than US aftermarket suppliers. I say probably, because I have not seen the 993RS aero products from MA Shaw, and others. I did purchase an aftermarket tail(not from MA Shaw) for $450. By the time I got it installed on the car, prepared and painted, the cost had gone up to $1,000 for the tail. Would paint and prep be less for the factory tail, maybe. I need you to experiment and tell us what you discover! I love the 993RS look...the RS mechanicals over stock, are the makings of a very long post, not to be done today.
09-15-2002, 11:35 AM
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[quote] Having driven a 993 at speed... with and without the 993RS tail, the RS tail makes a big difference in car stability. <hr></blockquote>
I think that probably answers my question. Just to clarify, were those experiences with an other-wise stock body or with the RS splitter and skirts?
Priority one is performance; looks is a lower but important factor. For my DEs, speeds in the 130 range are conceivable. I like the look of the RS splitter, but have always preferred the 911 without a rear spoiler. The retractable stock set-up is a great alternative -- stylistically speaking.
I expect that the stock 993 can be driven at 130 without undue instability. I would expect that the RS package would improve on that stability (at some drag penalty). I guess the question is, would the RS splitter and skirts alone render an otherwise stock 993 significantly less stable at high speeds than it would have been without any RS body pieces? What about at 100mph?
I think that probably answers my question. Just to clarify, were those experiences with an other-wise stock body or with the RS splitter and skirts?
Priority one is performance; looks is a lower but important factor. For my DEs, speeds in the 130 range are conceivable. I like the look of the RS splitter, but have always preferred the 911 without a rear spoiler. The retractable stock set-up is a great alternative -- stylistically speaking.
I expect that the stock 993 can be driven at 130 without undue instability. I would expect that the RS package would improve on that stability (at some drag penalty). I guess the question is, would the RS splitter and skirts alone render an otherwise stock 993 significantly less stable at high speeds than it would have been without any RS body pieces? What about at 100mph?
09-15-2002, 01:10 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Preston:
[QB]
Mark wrote, "..what were those experiences with an other-wise stock body or with the RS splitter and skirts?" With the stock 993 tail, the car at speed > 120 mph, did not feel is if were on "rails". With the 993RS tail it does. The reduction in body lift to 0 is a big +.
Mark added, "I expect that the stock 993 can be driven at 130 without undue instability. I would expect that the RS package would improve on that stability (at some drag penalty)." According to Porsche, the Coefficient of of drag on a stock 993 is 0.33. The coefficient of drag (Cd) on a 993 RS is 0.33. One of the few cases where you get something for nothing...well excluding the $2,800 for the kit and approximately $1,000 for paint and fitting. The stock 993 can be driven at 130 mph without undue instability...however with the 993RS kit, it is much more stable with 0 lift compared to the stock set up.
Mark adds, "I guess the question is, would the RS splitter and skirts alone render an otherwise stock 993 significantly less stable at high speeds than it would have been without any RS body pieces? What about at 100mph?"
I don't think you would feel the difference with the splitters and side skirts, but add that tail, rock solid baby!
All I know is that I went through Turn 8 at Willow Springs international Raceway before the tail with some trepidation, reluctantly pushing the accelerator to the floor in a controlled application (This means I didn't have the cajones to floor it in the early part of the turn).
With the RS tail, the car just settles down, and it seems very natural to apply the gas to the maximum as soon as possible, no trepidation. And when it is time to get off the gas to set up and brake for turn 9, the car remains stable in the deceleration mode. With the stock tail, the back end seemed to be a little light, an unnerving sensation.
In closing, just imagine how a car with the 993RS CS package handles at speed, with 160 Lbs. of downforce at maximum speed 170 mph. I would have gone this route (The 993RS CS aero package) but it just is a bit too radical for me, with my 993 primarily a street car. However, I would encourage you to do this! The front splitters are different, same side skirts, and an adjustable wing, up to nine degrees negative. At 170 mph you get the 160 Lbs. of downforce and the Cd is just a little bit greater than stock at 0.36.
Go aero!
[QB]
Mark wrote, "..what were those experiences with an other-wise stock body or with the RS splitter and skirts?" With the stock 993 tail, the car at speed > 120 mph, did not feel is if were on "rails". With the 993RS tail it does. The reduction in body lift to 0 is a big +.
Mark added, "I expect that the stock 993 can be driven at 130 without undue instability. I would expect that the RS package would improve on that stability (at some drag penalty)." According to Porsche, the Coefficient of of drag on a stock 993 is 0.33. The coefficient of drag (Cd) on a 993 RS is 0.33. One of the few cases where you get something for nothing...well excluding the $2,800 for the kit and approximately $1,000 for paint and fitting. The stock 993 can be driven at 130 mph without undue instability...however with the 993RS kit, it is much more stable with 0 lift compared to the stock set up.
Mark adds, "I guess the question is, would the RS splitter and skirts alone render an otherwise stock 993 significantly less stable at high speeds than it would have been without any RS body pieces? What about at 100mph?"
I don't think you would feel the difference with the splitters and side skirts, but add that tail, rock solid baby!
All I know is that I went through Turn 8 at Willow Springs international Raceway before the tail with some trepidation, reluctantly pushing the accelerator to the floor in a controlled application (This means I didn't have the cajones to floor it in the early part of the turn).
With the RS tail, the car just settles down, and it seems very natural to apply the gas to the maximum as soon as possible, no trepidation. And when it is time to get off the gas to set up and brake for turn 9, the car remains stable in the deceleration mode. With the stock tail, the back end seemed to be a little light, an unnerving sensation.
In closing, just imagine how a car with the 993RS CS package handles at speed, with 160 Lbs. of downforce at maximum speed 170 mph. I would have gone this route (The 993RS CS aero package) but it just is a bit too radical for me, with my 993 primarily a street car. However, I would encourage you to do this! The front splitters are different, same side skirts, and an adjustable wing, up to nine degrees negative. At 170 mph you get the 160 Lbs. of downforce and the Cd is just a little bit greater than stock at 0.36.
Go aero!
09-15-2002, 02:09 PM
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Thanks, Martin.
"Cojones"? Is that something they put on the gurney with you when you're loaded into the ambulance? If so, if hope I never get any.
I can see that you're eager for me to try some different configurations. Unfortunately, the budget makes me anxious to get things right the first time, as far as possible. Hence all my nit-picking questions on this board.
"Cojones"? Is that something they put on the gurney with you when you're loaded into the ambulance? If so, if hope I never get any.
I can see that you're eager for me to try some different configurations. Unfortunately, the budget makes me anxious to get things right the first time, as far as possible. Hence all my nit-picking questions on this board.
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09-15-2002, 02:32 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin:
[QB]The front splitters, side skirts and wing reduce lift to 0 at 170 mph....
Martin, what is your source for this information and can you let me know what the effect of the Aerokit 1 is on a 993 narrow body. I have a 97 C4 Cab, that I have installed the factory Aerokit 1, front splitters, sills and rear spoiler. I feel much like you do that the car is more stable and also there is less engine noise heard from in the car with the top up, at any speed.
I was going for the RS then a deal came up on eBay for the Aerokit 1, unused and I could not pass it up.
I will be putting my car in the gallery once I figure out how to do that.
[QB]The front splitters, side skirts and wing reduce lift to 0 at 170 mph....
Martin, what is your source for this information and can you let me know what the effect of the Aerokit 1 is on a 993 narrow body. I have a 97 C4 Cab, that I have installed the factory Aerokit 1, front splitters, sills and rear spoiler. I feel much like you do that the car is more stable and also there is less engine noise heard from in the car with the top up, at any speed.
I was going for the RS then a deal came up on eBay for the Aerokit 1, unused and I could not pass it up.
I will be putting my car in the gallery once I figure out how to do that.
09-15-2002, 03:12 PM
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Guys - To put some perspective in here...
You are talking about changing the lift/downforce by 100-200 lbs at 130 mph. In T8 at Willow, that means you can go ~1 mph faster. It may change the balance of the car a tiny bit.
The balance and the belief it is doing more than it really is, can change your confidence in the car. I am not downplaying that - it is very important in driving at the limit.
You are talking about changing the lift/downforce by 100-200 lbs at 130 mph. In T8 at Willow, that means you can go ~1 mph faster. It may change the balance of the car a tiny bit.
The balance and the belief it is doing more than it really is, can change your confidence in the car. I am not downplaying that - it is very important in driving at the limit.
09-16-2002, 04:47 AM
#10
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Ignacio,
In Paul Frere's book:
The x axis is speed in meters per second (1 meter per second = 2.2 mph) and the y axis is Kiloponds (=2.2 pounds)
As you can see already around 80 mph the effect of the spoiler is evident.
In Paul Frere's book:
The x axis is speed in meters per second (1 meter per second = 2.2 mph) and the y axis is Kiloponds (=2.2 pounds)
As you can see already around 80 mph the effect of the spoiler is evident.
09-16-2002, 12:07 PM
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"Martin, what is your source for this information?"
My little 993RS "Bible" that I obtained from Gert Carnewal: PORSCHE Service Information Technik '96 911 Carrera RS, Porsche Part Number WKD 499 620. The downforce numbers are in Newtons, the factor is .2248, therefore -713 newtons = 160.2 Lbs of downforce at 170 mph, as seen on the 993RS CS car.
"and can you let me know what the effect of the Aerokit 1 is on a 993 narrow body."
I have no idea on the Aerokit...I have seen no published data. If it feels better to you, it is probably better.
"I was going for the RS then a deal came up on eBay for the Aerokit 1, unused and I could not pass it up."
When I priced out the Aero Kit 1B last year, it was over $3,000 from my Porsche dealer, and that did not include the side skirts. If you "stole" it on E-Bay...good for you.
"I will be putting my car in the gallery once I figure out how to do that."
We will be looking for the pics!!!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
My little 993RS "Bible" that I obtained from Gert Carnewal: PORSCHE Service Information Technik '96 911 Carrera RS, Porsche Part Number WKD 499 620. The downforce numbers are in Newtons, the factor is .2248, therefore -713 newtons = 160.2 Lbs of downforce at 170 mph, as seen on the 993RS CS car.
"and can you let me know what the effect of the Aerokit 1 is on a 993 narrow body."
I have no idea on the Aerokit...I have seen no published data. If it feels better to you, it is probably better.
"I was going for the RS then a deal came up on eBay for the Aerokit 1, unused and I could not pass it up."
When I priced out the Aero Kit 1B last year, it was over $3,000 from my Porsche dealer, and that did not include the side skirts. If you "stole" it on E-Bay...good for you.
"I will be putting my car in the gallery once I figure out how to do that."
We will be looking for the pics!!!
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
09-16-2002, 09:16 PM
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I'm thinking about another combination and curious on your thoughts...I'm thinking of picking up a '97 C2S that has the factory Aerokit II installed.
I'm wondering about the possibility of putting my RS wing on the new car and keep the existing bumper in place. Any issues in doing this?
I realize that if I want to use my RS chin spoilers I'll have to replace the front bumper - not convinced if I want to do that.
I'm wondering about the possibility of putting my RS wing on the new car and keep the existing bumper in place. Any issues in doing this?
I realize that if I want to use my RS chin spoilers I'll have to replace the front bumper - not convinced if I want to do that.
09-16-2002, 09:55 PM
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Rick,
Hope that new car finds a home soon.
No worries on leaving the front bumper alone. Some aero kits came with a Turbo S spoiler, basically a small lip around the lower edge of the front bumper. Do you know if yours has this?
I would leave the Turbo S rear spoiler on the car. ( I think that is what the Aerokit II is?)I wouldn't doubt if it actually gives you more downforce since it sits up higher.
I agree with Mark that I think the effect is minimal, especially for DE's and lapping days where you aren't being timed. If there is a pyschological effect and it gives you more confidence in the car then all the better.
Hope that new car finds a home soon.
No worries on leaving the front bumper alone. Some aero kits came with a Turbo S spoiler, basically a small lip around the lower edge of the front bumper. Do you know if yours has this?
I would leave the Turbo S rear spoiler on the car. ( I think that is what the Aerokit II is?)I wouldn't doubt if it actually gives you more downforce since it sits up higher.
I agree with Mark that I think the effect is minimal, especially for DE's and lapping days where you aren't being timed. If there is a pyschological effect and it gives you more confidence in the car then all the better.
09-17-2002, 07:34 AM
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Dear all
I went for the "clubsport" look although used the GT2 rear spoiler on my narrow body (the standard CS spoiler sat too "high" for my taste).
At speeds above 85 mph the difference is notable, above 120 the car feels like its on rails.
I used to race single seaters (formula ford) many years ago but they had no aero features and i was always curious how a proper "winged" car felt.
I was surprised the difference in handling could be so marked on a road car.
Overall I'm very happy. The "dirt flow" you get when driving at speed across germany seems to confirm how effective the airflow off that rear wing is.
(Also my car seems to run a bit cooler)
Regards
Mike
I went for the "clubsport" look although used the GT2 rear spoiler on my narrow body (the standard CS spoiler sat too "high" for my taste).
At speeds above 85 mph the difference is notable, above 120 the car feels like its on rails.
I used to race single seaters (formula ford) many years ago but they had no aero features and i was always curious how a proper "winged" car felt.
I was surprised the difference in handling could be so marked on a road car.
Overall I'm very happy. The "dirt flow" you get when driving at speed across germany seems to confirm how effective the airflow off that rear wing is.
(Also my car seems to run a bit cooler)
Regards
Mike