OT - Hello Anir - My M3 bit the dust last weekend
09-08-2002, 05:40 PM
#16
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Huh?
Please explain why I should be concerned over what happens to my leased car AFTER I turn it back in? Am I not paying for the right to walk away from the vehicle after 3 years? I will take excellent care of it while it is in my possession (I paid for an oil change out of my pocket at the 1,200 mile service) but what happens to it later is beyond the scope of my responsibility.
This differs from a 993 as most of us here recognize that a 993 is a keeper and a M3 is an appliance.
Please explain why I should be concerned over what happens to my leased car AFTER I turn it back in? Am I not paying for the right to walk away from the vehicle after 3 years? I will take excellent care of it while it is in my possession (I paid for an oil change out of my pocket at the 1,200 mile service) but what happens to it later is beyond the scope of my responsibility.
This differs from a 993 as most of us here recognize that a 993 is a keeper and a M3 is an appliance.
09-08-2002, 05:50 PM
#17
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DC,
It's not that you should care. I think the point is many folks purchase their cars, and the increasingly poor reputation of the E46 M3's will negatively affect not only their ownership experience but also the residual values of their cars.
Unlike you, I originally viewed the M3 as a "keeper", as I do any expensive purchase. I am no financial wizard, but I don't rent / lease and never buy a car (or other depreciating asset) on a loan. Just doesn't feel right, despite the potentially valid arguments about using someone else's money so that you can put your money to better use.
It's not that you should care. I think the point is many folks purchase their cars, and the increasingly poor reputation of the E46 M3's will negatively affect not only their ownership experience but also the residual values of their cars.
Unlike you, I originally viewed the M3 as a "keeper", as I do any expensive purchase. I am no financial wizard, but I don't rent / lease and never buy a car (or other depreciating asset) on a loan. Just doesn't feel right, despite the potentially valid arguments about using someone else's money so that you can put your money to better use.
09-08-2002, 06:06 PM
#18
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Anir,
I believe it is BMW's responsibility to care...they are the manufacturer. I am not taking the attitude that I don't care, I am merely suggesting that the lion's share of the responsibility falls upon the shoulders of the manufacturer. My responsibility is to make my rental (lease) payments on time and to take proper care of the vehicle. I exceeded my responsibilities my paying for an oil change in excess of what is recommended by the manufacturer. I did so as I thought it would be best for the car. Please don't think I don't care about this car's condition because I am leasing it...I treat it like gold. However, I have only assumed responsibility for the car for 36 months or until I buy out of my lease.
As far as leasing, owning, etc. is concerned...the "financial" rule of thumb is never buy a depreciating asset...it is usually cheaper to lease. I leased as I am self-employed and my "after tax" cost of the car is about $430 per month with no money down and a buyout of a hair over $30K.
If the manufacturers can't get their acts together and produce a quality product anymore then we need to adjust our role in the ownership process to protect ourselves....or we could all just stick with our 993's and save a lot of hassle.
I believe it is BMW's responsibility to care...they are the manufacturer. I am not taking the attitude that I don't care, I am merely suggesting that the lion's share of the responsibility falls upon the shoulders of the manufacturer. My responsibility is to make my rental (lease) payments on time and to take proper care of the vehicle. I exceeded my responsibilities my paying for an oil change in excess of what is recommended by the manufacturer. I did so as I thought it would be best for the car. Please don't think I don't care about this car's condition because I am leasing it...I treat it like gold. However, I have only assumed responsibility for the car for 36 months or until I buy out of my lease.
As far as leasing, owning, etc. is concerned...the "financial" rule of thumb is never buy a depreciating asset...it is usually cheaper to lease. I leased as I am self-employed and my "after tax" cost of the car is about $430 per month with no money down and a buyout of a hair over $30K.
If the manufacturers can't get their acts together and produce a quality product anymore then we need to adjust our role in the ownership process to protect ourselves....or we could all just stick with our 993's and save a lot of hassle.
09-08-2002, 06:26 PM
#19
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[quote]Originally posted by DC from Cape Cod:
<strong>Anir, Please don't think I don't care about this car's condition because I am leasing it...I treat it like gold.</strong> <hr></blockquote>
DC,
You seem to take conscientious care of your M3. The point is that you don't care about its long-term reliability, say after the warranty is expired, because you don't own it. Personally, I'm not convinced that the new engine in my wife's M3 will be any more reliable in the long run than the original one.
If the connecting rod bearing failure was due to an isolated production line issue, maybe. If it is a design flaw, no. At about $12-15K wholesale for a new E46 M3 engine, not including installation labor costs, it's a sticky issue for long-term owners. Who will want one of these cars once the warranty is expired? Who wants to track the M3 when you know that the engine may self-destruct? For many folks, the E46 M3 is the pinnacle - a dream-come-true sports car (not just an appliance) that is now apparently too fragile to use.
[quote]<strong>....or we could all just stick with our 993's and save a lot of hassle. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. The 993 is the most fun, best engineered, most reliable car I've ever owned, and I look forward to passing it down to my children some day.
<strong>Anir, Please don't think I don't care about this car's condition because I am leasing it...I treat it like gold.</strong> <hr></blockquote>
DC,
You seem to take conscientious care of your M3. The point is that you don't care about its long-term reliability, say after the warranty is expired, because you don't own it. Personally, I'm not convinced that the new engine in my wife's M3 will be any more reliable in the long run than the original one.
If the connecting rod bearing failure was due to an isolated production line issue, maybe. If it is a design flaw, no. At about $12-15K wholesale for a new E46 M3 engine, not including installation labor costs, it's a sticky issue for long-term owners. Who will want one of these cars once the warranty is expired? Who wants to track the M3 when you know that the engine may self-destruct? For many folks, the E46 M3 is the pinnacle - a dream-come-true sports car (not just an appliance) that is now apparently too fragile to use.
[quote]<strong>....or we could all just stick with our 993's and save a lot of hassle.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Agreed. The 993 is the most fun, best engineered, most reliable car I've ever owned, and I look forward to passing it down to my children some day.
09-08-2002, 06:38 PM
#20
Anir, DC,
This is a great thread. I personally feel that BMW may have cut too many corners in the interest of bigger margins. It's a calcualted business risk that may come back to bite them.
The real impact will be to the company's long-term reputation. Much of that will depend on how they treat their customers and how effective they are at spin control. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the competition, Japanese or German, exploit the reliability problems in the future.
As far as ownership goes, I own our Porsche, Mazda Miata and Honda Accord outright. While many scholarly types will tell you it's not a great idea to tie up $60k + in an automobile when it could be financed for ~6%, the P-car depriciated about 10% in the last 14 months. My investment portfolio is down about 22% for the same period.
Sometimes, traditional logic just doesn't apply!
Regards
Matt
This is a great thread. I personally feel that BMW may have cut too many corners in the interest of bigger margins. It's a calcualted business risk that may come back to bite them.
The real impact will be to the company's long-term reputation. Much of that will depend on how they treat their customers and how effective they are at spin control. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the competition, Japanese or German, exploit the reliability problems in the future.
As far as ownership goes, I own our Porsche, Mazda Miata and Honda Accord outright. While many scholarly types will tell you it's not a great idea to tie up $60k + in an automobile when it could be financed for ~6%, the P-car depriciated about 10% in the last 14 months. My investment portfolio is down about 22% for the same period.
Sometimes, traditional logic just doesn't apply!
Regards
Matt
09-08-2002, 07:53 PM
#21
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Anir,
I apologize, I misunderstood your other post.
You are correct...the long-term reliability of this car is not a concern to me as there is little or no chance I will own it for more than 3 years. I still treat it as I would want my next 993 to be treated by its first owner though.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The Boxster had a huge number of failures early on...they worked their way through it and survived.
This issue appears to be a bearing tolerance issue that was made much worse by incorrect machining in early October. It was corrected 6 - 8 weeks later as evidenced by the change in bearing part numbers on the BMW parts CD.
The M3 is really much more than the bad news...it is a blast to drive and my only real complaint (so far) is that it ISN'T a 993.
I apologize, I misunderstood your other post.
You are correct...the long-term reliability of this car is not a concern to me as there is little or no chance I will own it for more than 3 years. I still treat it as I would want my next 993 to be treated by its first owner though.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The Boxster had a huge number of failures early on...they worked their way through it and survived.
This issue appears to be a bearing tolerance issue that was made much worse by incorrect machining in early October. It was corrected 6 - 8 weeks later as evidenced by the change in bearing part numbers on the BMW parts CD.
The M3 is really much more than the bad news...it is a blast to drive and my only real complaint (so far) is that it ISN'T a 993.
09-13-2002, 05:07 PM
#22
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[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
One of the reasons that we bought the 2003 Range Rover was that its development reminded me of the traditional Porsche approach to excellence at any cost. The new Range Rover was the pet project of a hard-headed perfectionist named Wolfgang Reitzle, who seems to have lost his job at BMW because he spent too much money ($1.4 billion) on the development of this car. Hopefully, his labour of love and fanatic demand for excellence will translate into a wonderful car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wolfgang ran into the same problems after being hired by Jac Nasser at Ford. Land Rover, Aston Martin, Volvo, Lincoln and Jaguar were all rolled into one conglomerate called PAG (Premier Automotive Group) and Wolfgang was put at the helm. He has left this job already, allegedly because he laid out his plan on what it was going to take to make Lincoln a legitimate contender with BMW/Audi/Mercedes, and he couldn't get support to make it happen. So he decided to leave, not wanting to be at the helm of a ship that had the wrong destination before even departing.
He also allegedly led the charge that got James Bond in a BMW when he was there. And he brought Bond back to Aston (so the story goes).
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I would be surprised if subsequent Land Rover models are as good as what you have bought. That would make the Range Rover...a keeper.
<strong>
One of the reasons that we bought the 2003 Range Rover was that its development reminded me of the traditional Porsche approach to excellence at any cost. The new Range Rover was the pet project of a hard-headed perfectionist named Wolfgang Reitzle, who seems to have lost his job at BMW because he spent too much money ($1.4 billion) on the development of this car. Hopefully, his labour of love and fanatic demand for excellence will translate into a wonderful car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wolfgang ran into the same problems after being hired by Jac Nasser at Ford. Land Rover, Aston Martin, Volvo, Lincoln and Jaguar were all rolled into one conglomerate called PAG (Premier Automotive Group) and Wolfgang was put at the helm. He has left this job already, allegedly because he laid out his plan on what it was going to take to make Lincoln a legitimate contender with BMW/Audi/Mercedes, and he couldn't get support to make it happen. So he decided to leave, not wanting to be at the helm of a ship that had the wrong destination before even departing.
He also allegedly led the charge that got James Bond in a BMW when he was there. And he brought Bond back to Aston (so the story goes).
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I would be surprised if subsequent Land Rover models are as good as what you have bought. That would make the Range Rover...a keeper.
09-14-2002, 11:19 AM
#23
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[quote]Originally posted by A.J. - 95 993:
<strong>I hate to sound pessimistic, but I would be surprised if subsequent Land Rover models are as good as what you have bought. That would make the Range Rover...a keeper. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi AJ,
Funny you should mention that, because I've wondered the same. That's one of the reasons we were willing to buy a first year production model.
We've sold the M3 back to the dealer, and picked up the new Rover last night. If all goes well, we hope to keep it for 10-15 years. Interestingly, I read yesterday that the '03 Range Rover was the most expensive car redesign project ever. You've got to like Wolfgang's vision if you're a car nut.
It's got the reworked 4.4L BMW engine from the X5, as well as a buttery-smooth BMW 5-speed auto transmission. I also recognize a bunch of the switches (e.g. sunroof, window) from the BMW parts bin as well.
The car is unbelievably solid and quiet. It's hard to hear the engine at idle, and the shifting is the smoothest I've seen since the 2000 MB S500. Visibility is excellent for such a big car, due to the panoramic windows. Also, it's got the strongest AC system I've ever encountered, which surprised me.
The car did 85-90 mph the entire way back from Louisville without breaking a sweat (I don't think the tach ever breached 3,000 rpm). Looks like a Bentley inside. Tows 7700 lb, so I can start looking for a track car / trailer next spring. Another plus: Four years of free maintenance, so I can concentrate on working on the 993.
Man, I'm impressed. I just hope the reliability is as good as the design.
<strong>I hate to sound pessimistic, but I would be surprised if subsequent Land Rover models are as good as what you have bought. That would make the Range Rover...a keeper.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Hi AJ,
Funny you should mention that, because I've wondered the same. That's one of the reasons we were willing to buy a first year production model.
We've sold the M3 back to the dealer, and picked up the new Rover last night. If all goes well, we hope to keep it for 10-15 years. Interestingly, I read yesterday that the '03 Range Rover was the most expensive car redesign project ever. You've got to like Wolfgang's vision if you're a car nut.
It's got the reworked 4.4L BMW engine from the X5, as well as a buttery-smooth BMW 5-speed auto transmission. I also recognize a bunch of the switches (e.g. sunroof, window) from the BMW parts bin as well.
The car is unbelievably solid and quiet. It's hard to hear the engine at idle, and the shifting is the smoothest I've seen since the 2000 MB S500. Visibility is excellent for such a big car, due to the panoramic windows. Also, it's got the strongest AC system I've ever encountered, which surprised me.
The car did 85-90 mph the entire way back from Louisville without breaking a sweat (I don't think the tach ever breached 3,000 rpm). Looks like a Bentley inside. Tows 7700 lb, so I can start looking for a track car / trailer next spring. Another plus: Four years of free maintenance, so I can concentrate on working on the 993.
Man, I'm impressed. I just hope the reliability is as good as the design.
09-14-2002, 01:35 PM
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Anir, you're right in saying how wonderful the new Rover is. The reliability should be there with the BMW engine. I previously had a '99 Callaway edition Range Rover and it too was a great car, that is until things started to break on it when the warranty was up. It's funny how these things happen. 
09-14-2002, 03:23 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Matt Vaughan:
<strong>I previously had a '99 Callaway edition Range Rover and it too was a great car, that is until things started to break on it when the warranty was up. It's funny how these things happen. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Matt,
I know what you mean. On my 1991 Infiniti Q45, the factory warranty covered the transmission until 100,000 miles. Mine failed at 101,500 miles.
<strong>I previously had a '99 Callaway edition Range Rover and it too was a great car, that is until things started to break on it when the warranty was up. It's funny how these things happen.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Matt,
I know what you mean. On my 1991 Infiniti Q45, the factory warranty covered the transmission until 100,000 miles. Mine failed at 101,500 miles.
09-17-2002, 02:03 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
It's ridiculous to write off BMW because they've had a problem with the e46 M3 engines. Basically ones that were built in a narrow timespan. I haven't heard of any failures of the 2.5 or 3 liter 3 series sixes. Nor the replacement M3 engines. They seemed to have the bugs worked out of the v8's as well.
As for the 333 hp pushing the 3.2 beyond what it can take, remember the euro e36 M3 had about 300 hp. Not exactly a huge increase.
As for the 333 hp pushing the 3.2 beyond what it can take, remember the euro e36 M3 had about 300 hp. Not exactly a huge increase.
09-17-2002, 02:45 AM
#27
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[quote]Originally posted by pig4bill:
<strong>It's ridiculous to write off BMW because they've had a problem with the e46 M3 engines. Basically ones that were built in a narrow timespan. I haven't heard of any failures of the 2.5 or 3 liter 3 series sixes. Nor the replacement M3 engines. They seemed to have the bugs worked out of the v8's as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I know that it's not exactly the same thing (it's not apples-to-oranges either), the motor in my Mini Cooper blew up at 4k miles. Rod bearing. It is definitely not a highly stressed design.
<strong>It's ridiculous to write off BMW because they've had a problem with the e46 M3 engines. Basically ones that were built in a narrow timespan. I haven't heard of any failures of the 2.5 or 3 liter 3 series sixes. Nor the replacement M3 engines. They seemed to have the bugs worked out of the v8's as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I know that it's not exactly the same thing (it's not apples-to-oranges either), the motor in my Mini Cooper blew up at 4k miles. Rod bearing. It is definitely not a highly stressed design.
09-17-2002, 09:47 AM
#28
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[quote]Originally posted by DJ:
<strong>It is definitely not a highly stressed design.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even when you're driving ~DJ?
As a side note and to add a little closure to Chris' story, feel free to click <a href="http://www.paceglobal.com/encontrolmeter/ej" target="_blank">here</a> to hear the actual voicemail message as left by the BMW dealer. Notice the lack of surpise or remorse in her voice. I guess this is not a call we would like to make either, but...
E. J.
<strong>It is definitely not a highly stressed design.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even when you're driving ~DJ?
As a side note and to add a little closure to Chris' story, feel free to click <a href="http://www.paceglobal.com/encontrolmeter/ej" target="_blank">here</a> to hear the actual voicemail message as left by the BMW dealer. Notice the lack of surpise or remorse in her voice. I guess this is not a call we would like to make either, but...
E. J.
09-17-2002, 12:25 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
The car did 85-90 mph the entire way back from Louisville without breaking a sweat </strong><hr></blockquote>
Next time you're in town, give me a call. It would be fun to meet you. Hopefully my car will be ready by 10/5 (yeah Robin, I have my fingers crossed - no issues on parts availability yet, and Gert's bumpers are due in tomorrow). I plan on meeting Greg at Putnam. Are you going, Anir?
<strong>
The car did 85-90 mph the entire way back from Louisville without breaking a sweat </strong><hr></blockquote>
Next time you're in town, give me a call. It would be fun to meet you. Hopefully my car will be ready by 10/5 (yeah Robin, I have my fingers crossed - no issues on parts availability yet, and Gert's bumpers are due in tomorrow). I plan on meeting Greg at Putnam. Are you going, Anir?
09-17-2002, 01:49 PM
#30
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Anir - did you test a G500 when considering the Rover?
Pete in DC
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