Racing. WHAT do you do??
06-17-2004, 12:36 PM
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OG,
From one with a fair amount of experience here, the one avenue you did not mention in your summary is a G or F class 911. More expensive to buy than a 944 but much more reliable and thus less expensive to operate. Less expensive than a 964 and more reliable. Loads of folks to race with. Do the DE's first and you will figure out what is right for you.
By the way, Spec Miata cars including body parts which you will need are cheap but personal body parts are not.
Bryan
From one with a fair amount of experience here, the one avenue you did not mention in your summary is a G or F class 911. More expensive to buy than a 944 but much more reliable and thus less expensive to operate. Less expensive than a 964 and more reliable. Loads of folks to race with. Do the DE's first and you will figure out what is right for you.
By the way, Spec Miata cars including body parts which you will need are cheap but personal body parts are not.
Bryan
06-17-2004, 12:45 PM
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OG,
I went through this excercise about a year ago (after my second OTE in my 993...as they said in POC, "that car is purti, sure you want it on the track").
I have built a 944 that I am currently TT'ing and when I am fully race licensed with POC (NASA has a quicker licensing program) the car will be a SPEC 944. POC just (last week) officially created the SPEC 944 class. You must come out and look into this quickly growing class.
Yes, it is a water cooled Porsche but it is a Porsche (even my wife asked why I would want to race a Miata...I rode in one at LS and told her that they were a blast, but my heart is with Porsche). Note that the SPEC 944's and Miata's have similar lap times and power to weight ratio's.
The cost to build a SPEC 944 is $8-$12k. The variable there is if you build it yourself($8k) or have someone else do it ($12k). They are an absolute blast to drive and it is very competative as everyone has virtually the same car. The group is growing quickly in S. Cal and Arizona. Actually, my lap times at the Streets of Willow are quicker (in only one weekend) in my 944 than my 993. That may be because I am more willing to drive the 944 at its limit though.
I could go on and on about this... POC will be at SOW 09/06, and NASA will be at Willow on 07/10 (I won't be there for that event though) so you should check these cars out. Jump in one for a ride or possibly a drive. The SPEC guys are a very friendly bunch. Although competative, they all help each other out because they have found that it is more fun as a group than as individuals.
By the way, Dillon Scott (AKA Peanut in NY) also a 993 Rennlister is now on his second SPEC 944. Also, ask Phil McGrath how much fun the SPEC 944 guys are having with POC.
I went through this excercise about a year ago (after my second OTE in my 993...as they said in POC, "that car is purti, sure you want it on the track").
I have built a 944 that I am currently TT'ing and when I am fully race licensed with POC (NASA has a quicker licensing program) the car will be a SPEC 944. POC just (last week) officially created the SPEC 944 class. You must come out and look into this quickly growing class.
Yes, it is a water cooled Porsche but it is a Porsche (even my wife asked why I would want to race a Miata...I rode in one at LS and told her that they were a blast, but my heart is with Porsche). Note that the SPEC 944's and Miata's have similar lap times and power to weight ratio's.
The cost to build a SPEC 944 is $8-$12k. The variable there is if you build it yourself($8k) or have someone else do it ($12k). They are an absolute blast to drive and it is very competative as everyone has virtually the same car. The group is growing quickly in S. Cal and Arizona. Actually, my lap times at the Streets of Willow are quicker (in only one weekend) in my 944 than my 993. That may be because I am more willing to drive the 944 at its limit though.
I could go on and on about this... POC will be at SOW 09/06, and NASA will be at Willow on 07/10 (I won't be there for that event though) so you should check these cars out. Jump in one for a ride or possibly a drive. The SPEC guys are a very friendly bunch. Although competative, they all help each other out because they have found that it is more fun as a group than as individuals.
By the way, Dillon Scott (AKA Peanut in NY) also a 993 Rennlister is now on his second SPEC 944. Also, ask Phil McGrath how much fun the SPEC 944 guys are having with POC.
06-17-2004, 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by OldGuy
7. Most knowledgable racing enthusiasts suggest NOT to race your nice 993 because the downside of balling it up outwieghs the upside of bieng on the track. But you CAN use your nice 993 for DE's
DId I foget {sic} anything??
7. Most knowledgable racing enthusiasts suggest NOT to race your nice 993 because the downside of balling it up outwieghs the upside of bieng on the track. But you CAN use your nice 993 for DE's
DId I foget {sic} anything??
8. If temptation won't lure Kev, try trash talking.
06-17-2004, 12:55 PM
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David thanks the info just gets better and better.
Bryan I watched the older 911's race in VARA and they really cool and sounded great. is that what you are talking about 70's era 911's?
Btw I know about body parts. I race motocross and I am on a 3 races to one doctor visit ratio. I am getting too old to visit the doctor that much and I dont bounce as well as I used to. TO give you an idea both my boys race more than I (motocross) and neither has been to the emergency room ONCE! and both those little sh*t heads are faster than me AND take more chances on the jumps!!!
Bryan I watched the older 911's race in VARA and they really cool and sounded great. is that what you are talking about 70's era 911's?
Btw I know about body parts. I race motocross and I am on a 3 races to one doctor visit ratio. I am getting too old to visit the doctor that much and I dont bounce as well as I used to. TO give you an idea both my boys race more than I (motocross) and neither has been to the emergency room ONCE! and both those little sh*t heads are faster than me AND take more chances on the jumps!!!
06-17-2004, 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by OldGuy
TO give you an idea both my boys race more than I (motocross) and neither has been to the emergency room ONCE! and both those little sh*t heads are faster than me AND take more chances on the jumps!!!
TO give you an idea both my boys race more than I (motocross) and neither has been to the emergency room ONCE! and both those little sh*t heads are faster than me AND take more chances on the jumps!!!
What a great thread. Lots of interesting info....Thanks everyone.
06-17-2004, 02:14 PM
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OG, one thing about club racing (SCCA/PCA/etc.) is that it doesn't seem to favor the young as much as some other motorsports do. There are truly old guys with lots of experience who are very fast, and as long as you can pass the physical you can race.
Several of the guys I go to races with race 944 Turbos in E, and they have a ball. I can't say that they are always doing it on the cheap as they spend plenty on tires, etc., but it seems that they have an easier time being competitive than in many classes. We don't have NASA here in Colorado, but it looks like they're trying to get started, and if so I could see myself joining the Spec 944 ranks.
I've driven open-wheel cars at a couple of Skip Barber schools, including the advanced cars with wings, slicks, sequential trannys, etc. They're fast, have tons of grip, and so on, but I really didn't enjoy driving them much. It may be that I'm just too damn big to drive them, but even in the XL cars I never felt comfortable and ended up thinking about that more than the driving. The Spec Miatas aren't quite as confining, but I am not sure that I'd enjoy them much more in a real race given how cramped they feel to me.
Greg, thanks for the tips on the Radical vs. the Stohr. I didn't know much about the latter but happened to have seen their ads recently in Racer magazine Intersting, and being based in the USA is a plus.
As for reliability, another thought is to keep my 993 racer and get a rebuild of the engine for a 25 hour race. That car has been extremely reliable and the engine is amazing. It might also be an easier car to drive in an enduro for a bunch of guys who are used to Porsches...
OG, I've just ordered a couple of Evo 2s for the Cup, a new one for me and one for a passenger. If you're ever in the area or I'm out there, I'll take you out for a ride in this beast.
Several of the guys I go to races with race 944 Turbos in E, and they have a ball. I can't say that they are always doing it on the cheap as they spend plenty on tires, etc., but it seems that they have an easier time being competitive than in many classes. We don't have NASA here in Colorado, but it looks like they're trying to get started, and if so I could see myself joining the Spec 944 ranks.
I've driven open-wheel cars at a couple of Skip Barber schools, including the advanced cars with wings, slicks, sequential trannys, etc. They're fast, have tons of grip, and so on, but I really didn't enjoy driving them much. It may be that I'm just too damn big to drive them, but even in the XL cars I never felt comfortable and ended up thinking about that more than the driving. The Spec Miatas aren't quite as confining, but I am not sure that I'd enjoy them much more in a real race given how cramped they feel to me.
Greg, thanks for the tips on the Radical vs. the Stohr. I didn't know much about the latter but happened to have seen their ads recently in Racer magazine Intersting, and being based in the USA is a plus.
As for reliability, another thought is to keep my 993 racer and get a rebuild of the engine for a 25 hour race. That car has been extremely reliable and the engine is amazing. It might also be an easier car to drive in an enduro for a bunch of guys who are used to Porsches...
OG, I've just ordered a couple of Evo 2s for the Cup, a new one for me and one for a passenger. If you're ever in the area or I'm out there, I'll take you out for a ride in this beast.
06-17-2004, 02:22 PM
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i'll throw in for the sports racer crowd.....i race a lola 89/90 sports 2000. i got in the class because they remind me of the old can-am cars. i did a skip barber school first to make sure i was actually going to enjoy racing wheel to wheel (vs. an autocross background). the cars are fast (same 2 ltr engine as a club formula continental), have bodywork around the wheels to prevent accidental launching, and fair amount for cars around for sale. i generally expect to spend $2k per race weekend (this includes all expenses, including shop rental and a new set of tires). i get 2 seasons (4-5 events plus the runoffs) on my engine before rebuilding. the biggest difference between my car and the radicals and stohrs is the acceleration the bike motors have. on the other hand i feel my brakes and cornering ability are superior to all but the handful of top national drivers. plus i think the cost for entry in the sports 2000 is less than the dsr's (a good, used car w/ spares can be had for $15-20k
at some point i would love to race a properly prepared 911, but i'm afraid that might blow my budget (wife's term :-)) in the meantime i satisfy my porsche fix w/ my 993 (the best of them all IMO)
save the TT for the street, and buy a purpose built racer. then you're on the same slippery slope as you have with the mods :-)
at some point i would love to race a properly prepared 911, but i'm afraid that might blow my budget (wife's term :-)) in the meantime i satisfy my porsche fix w/ my 993 (the best of them all IMO)
save the TT for the street, and buy a purpose built racer. then you're on the same slippery slope as you have with the mods :-)
06-17-2004, 02:33 PM
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THe outstanding info continues to flow. I could write a book on what I learned here but then I would have to share royalties wiht you all.
Skip I would love to take you up on that. I have friends in Arvada and I make it out to Denver every once in a while. Hopefully I can get back out there soon. Dang I wish I coulda got to the track in Vegas!!
Skip I would love to take you up on that. I have friends in Arvada and I make it out to Denver every once in a while. Hopefully I can get back out there soon. Dang I wish I coulda got to the track in Vegas!!
06-17-2004, 03:42 PM
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OG -
Having raced a 914-6 in SCCA GT2, I can tell you that there is nothing more fun that the way that car handles. Depending on the track, I could usually out qualify the GT1 class cars (ex-TransAm cars). The problem is that you are looking at $3 - 4k per weekend (tires, fuel, prep, etc...)
An alternative that Skip in Boulder talked a little about is the Skip Barber series - where you can rent the car for the "event" and after 3 events you can get your FIA license. So, for about $10,000 you could get your ticket to race anything you'd pretty much want. If you're looking for the ultimate thrill/seat time, then with this license, you could buy a seat at Daytona ($30k) and run the Rolex - in a Porsche.
I've been toying with the thought of starting a side gig which would assist people with this sort of dream. Where else in sports could someone be able to get a chance to run with the "big boys?"
Doug
Having raced a 914-6 in SCCA GT2, I can tell you that there is nothing more fun that the way that car handles. Depending on the track, I could usually out qualify the GT1 class cars (ex-TransAm cars). The problem is that you are looking at $3 - 4k per weekend (tires, fuel, prep, etc...)
An alternative that Skip in Boulder talked a little about is the Skip Barber series - where you can rent the car for the "event" and after 3 events you can get your FIA license. So, for about $10,000 you could get your ticket to race anything you'd pretty much want. If you're looking for the ultimate thrill/seat time, then with this license, you could buy a seat at Daytona ($30k) and run the Rolex - in a Porsche.
I've been toying with the thought of starting a side gig which would assist people with this sort of dream. Where else in sports could someone be able to get a chance to run with the "big boys?"
Doug
06-17-2004, 03:59 PM
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Re: start racing
Originally posted by dave993
One class you may want to consider is a spec/club Formula Ford. I started racing in the cars 15 years ago and also raced Formula Atlantics and am currently racing a Swift DB5 S2000 in SCCA Nationals.These are older cars with at least one of the suspension systems outboard. You can find really nice cars for $9-10K ready to go. They are not as fast as a 911/993 but they are just as quick. At Summit Point (east coast track), a Club Ford lap times are as quick as a GT3 Cup car. Biggest difference in a purpose designed race car and sports car is corning abilty. My old Formula Atlantic would pull 3g's in turns and over 2.5g's on the brakes. You would have a blast in these cars for not alot of money. To get any type of Porsche to go this quick, you will spend cubic dollars. Good luck.
Dave Shaver
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Swift DB5 S2000
One class you may want to consider is a spec/club Formula Ford. I started racing in the cars 15 years ago and also raced Formula Atlantics and am currently racing a Swift DB5 S2000 in SCCA Nationals.These are older cars with at least one of the suspension systems outboard. You can find really nice cars for $9-10K ready to go. They are not as fast as a 911/993 but they are just as quick. At Summit Point (east coast track), a Club Ford lap times are as quick as a GT3 Cup car. Biggest difference in a purpose designed race car and sports car is corning abilty. My old Formula Atlantic would pull 3g's in turns and over 2.5g's on the brakes. You would have a blast in these cars for not alot of money. To get any type of Porsche to go this quick, you will spend cubic dollars. Good luck.
Dave Shaver
1995 993 C2
Swift DB5 S2000
OG, we have our newest Atlantic chassis in stock and actually we have a new one completed, ready to ship. Just send me your credit card
Its only $108,870.00 plus engine, data aquisition, engine loom, dampers, wheels and tires, ECU.....come on, piece of cake!In all seriousness, there are plenty of Swift 014.a chassis for sale used. Typically around $45k with spares..
How is the RC car racing going?
06-17-2004, 04:10 PM
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Two other points about the 944 (I guess I am biased) that I found appealing:
The car has enough room in it (good for taller people) that you can fit a set of tires, tools and spares in the car...therefore you don't really need a tow vehicle. Several guys drive their cars to all of the events.
Like the SPEC Miata, one of the series objectives is to keep the costs down and therefore the rules reflect that. Smallish tires, stock drivetran required, used parts are often available...oh, and a 13/13 rule for contact in POC to keep people from banging into each other in this "gentlemans sport".
I would love to race a 911 some day, but my current budget does not allow for that. If things continue the way they are now, I may be in a 911 later but I sure am having fun now
The car has enough room in it (good for taller people) that you can fit a set of tires, tools and spares in the car...therefore you don't really need a tow vehicle. Several guys drive their cars to all of the events.
Like the SPEC Miata, one of the series objectives is to keep the costs down and therefore the rules reflect that. Smallish tires, stock drivetran required, used parts are often available...oh, and a 13/13 rule for contact in POC to keep people from banging into each other in this "gentlemans sport".
I would love to race a 911 some day, but my current budget does not allow for that. If things continue the way they are now, I may be in a 911 later but I sure am having fun now
06-17-2004, 05:35 PM
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Chris this will be the 3rd weekend in a row I will be outta town (mammoth motocross) so I have not raced in a month. Hopefully next weekend!
Dave-- 944's are starting to look pretty good!
Dave-- 944's are starting to look pretty good!
06-17-2004, 11:53 PM
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David '96 993, you sure spec 944 is only $12k and be competitive? a front running miata "starts" at $15k. anything less than that, it's not going to be a front runner.