Performance Chip Survey
03-17-2003, 02:32 PM
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Performance Chip Survey
I do like the idea to gain few more horsepower by just plugging new programmed chip to the car. But all my attempts to get clear explanation how it is being achieved were unsuccessful.
I just can't understand why German guys from Porsche lab couldn't produce a better chip than some repair shop somewhere in Ohio or Michigan ...the one that may sell the performance chip. Even if we imagine such situation that some "third party" shop produced the chip that WORKS BETTER than Porsche's one...why then Porscheee wouldn't make an attempt to produce their own..may be even better one..to beat competitors, to make extra money, to keep reputation and etc.
That is why I've got to conclusion that if Porsche doesn't approve the third-party chips and doesn't produce any "upgraded" ones..then there are NO better ones. And any chips that do produce some extra power are nothing else as re-adjusters of gas/air mixture...which results to different power curve...by redistributing the power along the REVs range...something that is not being appreciated by Porsche and as I get it, considered as unsafe for the car reliability.
Here is my qustion. Are there any of you guys who own the car for more than a year...who already spent more than 1000 dollars on performance upgrades and still didn't get the third party performance chip? If there are such...would you please tell why didn't you?
I just can't understand why German guys from Porsche lab couldn't produce a better chip than some repair shop somewhere in Ohio or Michigan ...the one that may sell the performance chip. Even if we imagine such situation that some "third party" shop produced the chip that WORKS BETTER than Porsche's one...why then Porscheee wouldn't make an attempt to produce their own..may be even better one..to beat competitors, to make extra money, to keep reputation and etc.
That is why I've got to conclusion that if Porsche doesn't approve the third-party chips and doesn't produce any "upgraded" ones..then there are NO better ones. And any chips that do produce some extra power are nothing else as re-adjusters of gas/air mixture...which results to different power curve...by redistributing the power along the REVs range...something that is not being appreciated by Porsche and as I get it, considered as unsafe for the car reliability.
Here is my qustion. Are there any of you guys who own the car for more than a year...who already spent more than 1000 dollars on performance upgrades and still didn't get the third party performance chip? If there are such...would you please tell why didn't you?
03-17-2003, 03:45 PM
#2
Hi Sputnik,
The main place an aftermarket chip can get more HP & torque is by increasing the timing a bit:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Once more, without getting too technical, common knowledge dictates that advancing the timing can create horsepower. Advancing the timing, advances the spark which "advances" combustion. It's here that some subtle increase in horsepower may be found. Again, the emphasis is on subtle. Obviously, when the factory designs an engine, it will compromise somewhat on the timing advance simply because it has no control over the quality of gasoline the Porsche owner has available to him. The higher the octane rating is, the more advanced the timing can be, therefore producing more horsepower. The common misconception is that "more is better." Frankly, the timing can only be advanced so far before detonation sets in (commonly called pinging). In a detonation condition the power loss is dramatic, and can result in serious damage to your motor. Pinging may not always be noticeable, however; you may hear it driving on a steep grade while the engine is under load.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Quote is from:
<a href="http://www.andial.com/content/faqquest/quest2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.andial.com/content/faqquest/quest2.htm</a>
Tom
’95 993
The main place an aftermarket chip can get more HP & torque is by increasing the timing a bit:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Once more, without getting too technical, common knowledge dictates that advancing the timing can create horsepower. Advancing the timing, advances the spark which "advances" combustion. It's here that some subtle increase in horsepower may be found. Again, the emphasis is on subtle. Obviously, when the factory designs an engine, it will compromise somewhat on the timing advance simply because it has no control over the quality of gasoline the Porsche owner has available to him. The higher the octane rating is, the more advanced the timing can be, therefore producing more horsepower. The common misconception is that "more is better." Frankly, the timing can only be advanced so far before detonation sets in (commonly called pinging). In a detonation condition the power loss is dramatic, and can result in serious damage to your motor. Pinging may not always be noticeable, however; you may hear it driving on a steep grade while the engine is under load.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Quote is from:
<a href="http://www.andial.com/content/faqquest/quest2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.andial.com/content/faqquest/quest2.htm</a>
Tom
’95 993
03-17-2003, 06:01 PM
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I can't address what is changed in programming a new chip. If he doesn't respond here, I suggest you talk to Steve Weiner, I've spent a lot of time on the phone asking for explanations for various things from him.
I have spent a good deal of money on performance enhancements and the $500 for a new chip was the most bang for the buck. Even with a relatively insensitive G-Tech meter, I was able to see a performance benefit.
I actually look at it from the opposite perspective. If you have a relatively inexpensive way to increase the performance of your car for little money, in a way that will not damage it, why wouldn't you? It comes down to two things: Do you believe that there is increased performance? I've seen too many dyno runs and have my own (cheap) G-Tech results to argue otherwise. Do you believe the change can or will damage the car? I've heard nothing from any source that would indicate the chip damaged a car. Some have complained that the car didn't run well with certain chips, but no damage claims.
I chose a new chip and am very happy with the performance results.
By the way, what makes you think that Porsche does not use different parameters in the ECU for control of race/performance cars as opposed to mass market street cars? I think this is a poor and incorrect assumption. Do you really think that TRG or others won their races with a stock ECU and programming? The 993 RS (sold in Europe) had differnt programming than our cars. Just because Porsche don't sell a different chip, does not mean it can't be improved.
I have spent a good deal of money on performance enhancements and the $500 for a new chip was the most bang for the buck. Even with a relatively insensitive G-Tech meter, I was able to see a performance benefit.
I actually look at it from the opposite perspective. If you have a relatively inexpensive way to increase the performance of your car for little money, in a way that will not damage it, why wouldn't you? It comes down to two things: Do you believe that there is increased performance? I've seen too many dyno runs and have my own (cheap) G-Tech results to argue otherwise. Do you believe the change can or will damage the car? I've heard nothing from any source that would indicate the chip damaged a car. Some have complained that the car didn't run well with certain chips, but no damage claims.
I chose a new chip and am very happy with the performance results.
By the way, what makes you think that Porsche does not use different parameters in the ECU for control of race/performance cars as opposed to mass market street cars? I think this is a poor and incorrect assumption. Do you really think that TRG or others won their races with a stock ECU and programming? The 993 RS (sold in Europe) had differnt programming than our cars. Just because Porsche don't sell a different chip, does not mean it can't be improved.
03-18-2003, 03:37 AM
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Sputnik,
In general I agree with your pragmatic outlook. I will let you know that I've put chips in 4 different porsches and I'll post my thoughts on the topic:
- 944 Turbo (951): Incredible difference by increasing the amount of boost the car could run and putting in a jet in the wastgate. This is a +50 hp difference and is just night & day.
- 968: no differnce with a chip - could not tell
- 964: substantial difference in the chip. more drivable, power band comes on early.
- 993: mild improvement, less noticeable but measurable by GTECH.
Now those are experiences. Your next question is why does porsche not do these tunings themselves. I'm afraid it is a complicated answer and one that is more subjective. but i'll give it a shot.
In the 944 turbo - the added horsepower would make it extremely competitive with the flagship 911 for a fraction of the cost. also running more boost can lead to premature head gasket failures.
In the 968 they did a great job of tuning the car from the factory - there wasn't much more to do. as a sidenote, the 968Turbo (never released in north america) outperformed the 911 and was competitive against the 911Turbo.
On the 964 and 993. the stock programming can run with 89-91 octane. the main gain seems to be in advancing timing and that means higher octane gas. The knock sensor ignition can only retard so much. Also the revlimiter is raised producing a bit more power. I also think that Porsche did a better job on the 993 (given the engine platform was developed from the 964).
In addition US has some requirements (like sound regulations, fuel economy...) these can effect downtunings of the programming.
So as you can see some of the data suggests a bit of a conservative approach, some data suggests that some cars should be competitive in their price category other data suggests tax/legal implications. Which one who knows - but i would venture to say it is a combination of several.
Lastly I live in Menlo Park, so if you want to try out my car you are more than welcome to give it a whirl around the block....
Cheers,
Boris
In general I agree with your pragmatic outlook. I will let you know that I've put chips in 4 different porsches and I'll post my thoughts on the topic:
- 944 Turbo (951): Incredible difference by increasing the amount of boost the car could run and putting in a jet in the wastgate. This is a +50 hp difference and is just night & day.
- 968: no differnce with a chip - could not tell
- 964: substantial difference in the chip. more drivable, power band comes on early.
- 993: mild improvement, less noticeable but measurable by GTECH.
Now those are experiences. Your next question is why does porsche not do these tunings themselves. I'm afraid it is a complicated answer and one that is more subjective. but i'll give it a shot.
In the 944 turbo - the added horsepower would make it extremely competitive with the flagship 911 for a fraction of the cost. also running more boost can lead to premature head gasket failures.
In the 968 they did a great job of tuning the car from the factory - there wasn't much more to do. as a sidenote, the 968Turbo (never released in north america) outperformed the 911 and was competitive against the 911Turbo.
On the 964 and 993. the stock programming can run with 89-91 octane. the main gain seems to be in advancing timing and that means higher octane gas. The knock sensor ignition can only retard so much. Also the revlimiter is raised producing a bit more power. I also think that Porsche did a better job on the 993 (given the engine platform was developed from the 964).
In addition US has some requirements (like sound regulations, fuel economy...) these can effect downtunings of the programming.
So as you can see some of the data suggests a bit of a conservative approach, some data suggests that some cars should be competitive in their price category other data suggests tax/legal implications. Which one who knows - but i would venture to say it is a combination of several.
Lastly I live in Menlo Park, so if you want to try out my car you are more than welcome to give it a whirl around the block....
Cheers,
Boris
03-18-2003, 09:27 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Sputnik:
<strong>
Here is my qustion. Are there any of you guys who own the car for more than a year...who already spent more than 1000 dollars on performance upgrades and still didn't get the third party performance chip? If there are such...would you please tell why didn't you?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have spend a....ahem... good amount of money and still no chip because I took the "upgrades" in order of importance to me.
IMO the first upgrade that someone should do is suspension especially if you track the car. A good chip will give "some" power, as Boris said there are several regulations that Porsche had to take into account like fuel economy, drivability etc. A bright example of this is the gearbox. For 1994 and some 1995's in Europe Porsche installed the G50/21 box which has shorter gearing. For the US models and later years Porsche went with the G50/20 box to meet better the regulations of US, Switzerland etc. I recently installed a G50/21 box in my car and I can tell you that the "upgrade" will blow you away!!! The car is faster, it pulls continously from all the gears as the shorter gearing keep it on the power band, an amazing difference. This is a better "upgrade" than the chip. My point is that much like tha fact in my mind that all 993's should have had the G50/21 box in the same fashion you could apply the chip designs. A good chip designer will make it custom for you and can improve on power with fuel economy or emissions as possible trade offs.
The fact remains that certain chips have been proven to successfully add a few horses on the engine. Just don't expect a huge difference.
<strong>
Here is my qustion. Are there any of you guys who own the car for more than a year...who already spent more than 1000 dollars on performance upgrades and still didn't get the third party performance chip? If there are such...would you please tell why didn't you?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have spend a....ahem... good amount of money and still no chip because I took the "upgrades" in order of importance to me.
IMO the first upgrade that someone should do is suspension especially if you track the car. A good chip will give "some" power, as Boris said there are several regulations that Porsche had to take into account like fuel economy, drivability etc. A bright example of this is the gearbox. For 1994 and some 1995's in Europe Porsche installed the G50/21 box which has shorter gearing. For the US models and later years Porsche went with the G50/20 box to meet better the regulations of US, Switzerland etc. I recently installed a G50/21 box in my car and I can tell you that the "upgrade" will blow you away!!! The car is faster, it pulls continously from all the gears as the shorter gearing keep it on the power band, an amazing difference. This is a better "upgrade" than the chip. My point is that much like tha fact in my mind that all 993's should have had the G50/21 box in the same fashion you could apply the chip designs. A good chip designer will make it custom for you and can improve on power with fuel economy or emissions as possible trade offs.
The fact remains that certain chips have been proven to successfully add a few horses on the engine. Just don't expect a huge difference.
03-18-2003, 09:40 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Tom W:
<strong>By the way, what makes you think that Porsche does not use different parameters in the ECU for control of race/performance cars as opposed to mass market street cars? I think this is a poor and incorrect assumption. Do you really think that TRG or others won their races with a stock ECU and programming? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You are right, not only does Porsche have different mapping for their race cars but they also have different mapping for different customers. TRG gets a different mapping when they have the factory drivers in their car than when they don't. The mapping is removed once the race is over and set back to "stock" format.
<strong>By the way, what makes you think that Porsche does not use different parameters in the ECU for control of race/performance cars as opposed to mass market street cars? I think this is a poor and incorrect assumption. Do you really think that TRG or others won their races with a stock ECU and programming? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You are right, not only does Porsche have different mapping for their race cars but they also have different mapping for different customers. TRG gets a different mapping when they have the factory drivers in their car than when they don't. The mapping is removed once the race is over and set back to "stock" format.
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03-19-2003, 01:28 AM
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Sputnik,
If you are looking for upgrades here is my order or upgrades in relative importance.
1. Suspension (lower to euro spec and put in new shocks and sway bars) - even if you have the m030 option.
2. Light Weight Flywheel
3. Regear tranny to G50/21
Those above will do the trick!
A much lower priority list would be:
1. Modify air intake to Ram Air intake
2. Install Chip
3. Install RS Hub
And then if you really want part supercharge.
Now, the first 3 do not add power to the car at all. They all deal with how to better use the power you have (effeciency). Ironically you could add 50 horsepower to the car and the first set of mods would still be preferred IMHO.
Cheers,
Boris
If you are looking for upgrades here is my order or upgrades in relative importance.
1. Suspension (lower to euro spec and put in new shocks and sway bars) - even if you have the m030 option.
2. Light Weight Flywheel
3. Regear tranny to G50/21
Those above will do the trick!
A much lower priority list would be:
1. Modify air intake to Ram Air intake
2. Install Chip
3. Install RS Hub
And then if you really want part supercharge.
Now, the first 3 do not add power to the car at all. They all deal with how to better use the power you have (effeciency). Ironically you could add 50 horsepower to the car and the first set of mods would still be preferred IMHO.
Cheers,
Boris
03-19-2003, 02:11 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by rkymtn993:
<strong>Danny,
How much was it to install the G50/21 gear box?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Around 4K with install, shipping etc.
<strong>Danny,
How much was it to install the G50/21 gear box?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Around 4K with install, shipping etc.
03-19-2003, 08:16 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Around 4K with install, shipping etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not that I'm interested in this tranny issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> but...
Did you Danny re-gear your existing tranny or bought the whole G50/21?
Do you or someone else know what are the pro's & con's of getting the whole tranny or just re-gearing, (besides when re-gearing, you can choose ratios)? And how about the price difference?
I was thinking of keeping the 6th gear as it is (for future autobahn runs) and changing 1st maybe slightly bigger and 2-5 smaller.
Thanks!
<strong>Around 4K with install, shipping etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not that I'm interested in this tranny issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> but...
Did you Danny re-gear your existing tranny or bought the whole G50/21?
Do you or someone else know what are the pro's & con's of getting the whole tranny or just re-gearing, (besides when re-gearing, you can choose ratios)? And how about the price difference?
I was thinking of keeping the 6th gear as it is (for future autobahn runs) and changing 1st maybe slightly bigger and 2-5 smaller.
Thanks!
03-19-2003, 09:05 AM
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From feedback I've heard, a 993 chip is not a lot of bang for the buck on its own; however, others disagree.
If you want to go faster, the best bang for the buck, by far, is Drivers Ed. This really hits home when, every now and then, you get in a student's car that has tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades, gobs of hp/torque, yet the driver, and thus the car, is slower than some dead-stock cars on the track. AutoX can also help. After a short while, you'll be amazed at how fast your car already is.
I highly recommend getting upgrades, and making adjustments after you can run consistent laps and are exceeding the limits of your car. By that time you'll know for yourself what you need to go faster, and you'll enjoy the upgrades that much more.
Assuming you're planning, or now doing DE, I'd list upgrades as:
1) 5-6 point harnesses
2) suspension... only after you learn to use the car at the limits, otherwise, how are you going to know how to dial it in?
3) engine/tranny mods or LSD
If you want to go faster, the best bang for the buck, by far, is Drivers Ed. This really hits home when, every now and then, you get in a student's car that has tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades, gobs of hp/torque, yet the driver, and thus the car, is slower than some dead-stock cars on the track. AutoX can also help. After a short while, you'll be amazed at how fast your car already is.
I highly recommend getting upgrades, and making adjustments after you can run consistent laps and are exceeding the limits of your car. By that time you'll know for yourself what you need to go faster, and you'll enjoy the upgrades that much more.
Assuming you're planning, or now doing DE, I'd list upgrades as:
1) 5-6 point harnesses
2) suspension... only after you learn to use the car at the limits, otherwise, how are you going to know how to dial it in?
3) engine/tranny mods or LSD
03-19-2003, 11:19 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Around 4K with install, shipping etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not that I'm interested in this tranny issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> but...
Did you Danny re-gear your existing tranny or bought the whole G50/21?
Thanks!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah Finn..I can see you are not interested at all
I bought the whole box, no regearing. I figured that if I can sell my stock box then I can recover some cost at least half of it which would make it more cost effective than re-gearing. One more think for you mod junkies is that I also installed the TechArt short shifter along with the box. Great upgrade for 60 bucks from Gert. The gear shift action is much shorter especially on 2nd,4th,6th tight and accurate.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Around 4K with install, shipping etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not that I'm interested in this tranny issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> but...
Did you Danny re-gear your existing tranny or bought the whole G50/21?
Thanks!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yeah Finn..I can see you are not interested at all
I bought the whole box, no regearing. I figured that if I can sell my stock box then I can recover some cost at least half of it which would make it more cost effective than re-gearing. One more think for you mod junkies is that I also installed the TechArt short shifter along with the box. Great upgrade for 60 bucks from Gert. The gear shift action is much shorter especially on 2nd,4th,6th tight and accurate.
03-19-2003, 12:13 PM
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DJF1,
If you don't mind sharing, how much was the tranny and how much to have it installed, did you go to the lightweight flywheel at the same time.
Regards
Levino T
1997 993 C4 Cab Arctic Silver, Blue, Blue
If you don't mind sharing, how much was the tranny and how much to have it installed, did you go to the lightweight flywheel at the same time.
Regards
Levino T
1997 993 C4 Cab Arctic Silver, Blue, Blue
03-19-2003, 01:42 PM
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You can re-gear and make the tranny better than a stock box from Europe. It will cost more initially but for a race application it may be more cost effective in the long run. I would upgrade to steal synchros and billet shift forks while re-gearing which is not part of the Euro box, right?