spinning disc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Derrick B.:
<strong>IMO Mustangs, WRX's and cars of that ilk are 'disposable'. Just use them up and throw them away. Look at resale values for evidence of this. An 83 911SC can fetch as much as a 95 Vette ($15k). An entire Mustang GT from 1995 can be had for as much as the MOTOR of a '95 993.

Ten years from now, will anyone remember the Subaru RSX? Oops, I mean WRX. Or did they make that Evo car? Hmm, perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot on this line of argument. People will probably remember the WRX for many years beacuse of its tremendous success at the top tiers of rallying. But many of the others will be lost on the scrap heap of time. Anyone here remember the Omni GLH?

Besides, if it's horsepower you want, check out the "Stage XXXX" thread on the 996TT board. Last time I checked, he had 650hp at the wheels!

How does that go again? For race cars - fast, reliable, cheap. Choose two.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I agree completely with this poster. The WRX is disposable, which is inherent in its beauty as a commuter car. (I also feel like any BMW or MB is also made to be disposable these days, too. There are very few cars made that could still be considered keepers.) But that a disposable car can be so fast and damn close enough to the limits of a 993....it speaks to the raising of the bar in automotive dynamics.

When I will be driving around in my disposable $30,000 WRX STi running 4.6 seconds to 60mph, I really will wonder if the 993 was worth the money as anything other than a speculative purchase. And i bet i wiill think that after tracking the STi, too.

There are elements to truths about the beauty of the 993, but there are also so many issues which are "emperor's new clothes" syndrome. Once you get past these, is the 993 that great? It is a decent car and has heritage, but does it, for example, have the exclusivity and capability of a 360 modena, for example? Whenever i see the ugly head of porsche sycophants raise their heads, i like to temper it with a dose of reality.

Edward

Why is it that when a Porsche (or other fine automobile) owner displays love and enthusiasm for their car he is more often than not dismissed as some image-conscious wannabe showing off his overpriced bucket o' bolts, but those that spout HP figures, times, and various other stats of their less expensive cars and lord them over others, these are smart, honest car enthusiasts who can spot real value?

There are LOTS of really good cars out there, but there only few really great ones. And it certainly isn't the stats, alone, that make a car wonderful. Anyone who has driven any truly great car knows this. But those who haven't will just keep talking!!!

Edward

Mike W

While I certainly agree that the sum of a 993 is more than pure hp, an infusion of 50-100hp I believe would make it even more of a fun ride. That said I look foward to the day I can upgrade to a TT. (hopefully soon). Mike W

spinning disc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward:
<strong>Why is it that when a Porsche (or other fine automobile) owner displays love and enthusiasm for their car he is more often than not dismissed as some image-conscious wannabe showing off his overpriced bucket o' bolts, but those that spout HP figures, times, and various other stats of their less expensive cars and lord them over others, these are smart, honest car enthusiasts who can spot real value?

There are LOTS of really good cars out there, but there only few really great ones. And it certainly isn't the stats, alone, that make a car wonderful. Anyone who has driven any truly great car knows this. But those who haven't will just keep talking!!!

Edward</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">there are "automobile enthusiasts", the types who collect random stuff and sort of like cars, but never really drive 'em; there are "drivers" who drive their damn cars and know what's what.

i was at the wellesley mobil one weekend, just filling up my car. there was a guy who pulled up to check his air. nice black pre 964 chassis (the chassis just before the 964). he leaves his door wide open. no traffic can get through because of it. he takes his sweet time. even checks his hair, i swear. people in wellesley are too polite to honk but if he were in my way, i'd have honked or jumped out of my car and slammed his open door shut. do you think a driver would have done that? a driver is always aware of the surrounding. poseurs are just there to be seen in it.

while the M64 is a reliable, overbuilt powerplant, in terms of HP per litre, it is truly underwhelming and, in fact, plebian these days. it just is not really a debate. it is okay to have the wandering eye, fellas. but something still brings us back.

Edward

I am certainly not making the argument that more power, or for that matter, more brakes, better handling, etc., doesn't increase the grin factor of any given car. Would I want to add the aforementioned to my 993...Doh! But if another were to have all the good go-fast gear, would those things, by definition, make my 993 less of a great car? By comparison, maybe to some; in the absolute sense, absolutely not.

My point really is not an argumentative one. It is that owners of "great" cars love them for ALL the great attributes the cars bestow, whatever the attributes. WRXs and others really are fantastic cars. My good friend has one and it, along with a host of other machines that whip around me at the track, have proven themselves. But would I call a WRX, a Z28, or a 350Z "great" cars? Ones that are so impressive in so MANY ways that the whole truly is greater than the sum of their HP, er, parts?

Sure, there are always poseurs...who should be stripped of their glorious hardware and condemned to drive a Yugo, but that's another point. These wannabes exist in every car segment and should not be confused with the enthusiast who appreciates the car for for all it is (and isn't). A simple archive search through this board is sufficient to "prove" the 993 has recognizable shortcomings. So are we who love our 993s blindly infatuated because it is one of those legendary Porsches of Teutonic grandeur? Nope. It's just a great car! .....Sorry for the long post, but this really is a fun topic.

Edward

tom_993

<a href="http://www.automotriz.net/english/carcentury.html" target="_blank">http://www.automotriz.net/english/carcentury.html</a>

Tom
'95 993

N105DVV

I'll stick with what Autocar said in their top 100. Whilst i will never probably own the McLaren F1, i will settle for second best, as below. Scooby comes in at 5 or so.....

BR/Phil...

Jonathan Barnett

I feel that it is appropriate that I chime in here as well considering I own both a WRX and a 993. I have owned 4 Porsches over the years and I bought the WRX when they were just coming out. I have driven the WRX for 2 years now and if given the choice I always drive the 993. The difference is just refinement. The 993 communicates with the road much better, the shift action is considerably smoother, there is no drive train lash with the 993, the brakes are amazing and inspire complete confidence and the Porsche is quite simply faster.

The 993 just feels more complete in every way. There is a reason why the WRX was only $24,000 new. It doesn't have the same pedigree.

If they start refining the Japanese imports to the point were they are not just boy racers but actually have pedigree and a little soul then maybe I will consider that my Porsche is getting slow. Not until then.

Drive the 2 back to back.... you will understand what I mean.

By the way, my WRX is for sale if anyone wants it.

User 4621

I have to disagree with the common sentiment here. I LOVE the fact that cars are getting better and faster every year. I'm tickled that a cheap reliable Subaru can outperform the most expensive supercars of only a few years ago. This is nothing but good for us as enthusiasts.

I bought my 993 for a lot of reasons, but quite frankly, raw performance wasn't one of them. For the same money there is probably dozens of choices that would lap a track more quickly. And my bike is faster to 60, 100, or 1/4 mile than a McLaren F1, and it cost $7K new.

As far as what anyone else thinks, well, I bought my car IN SPITE OF the car's "aura", not because of it. I could care less what anyone thinks of me or my car, and I am fully cognizant of the negative stereotype that most people have of Porsche owners.

I love lots of different cars, but a 993 is what I spent my money on. It's the one that lives in a heated garage under an expensive custom made Italian car cover while my (more expensive) Land Cruiser sits outside in the weather.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Edward

Pete,

I concur on ALL counts!!! ...except that my garage is unheated and my car cover only goes on when parked at work.



Edward

Martin S.

Brian (BET) is on to something. You truly can drive your 993 to the track, unload it, tape up the lights, adjust tire pressures, and go out on the track and run multiple 20 to 30 minute sessions all weekends.

At the end of the day, remove tape, load car, fire up the engine, turn on the air, engage the 6 CD player, and drive home in incredible comfort. Can you do this with other cars, of course. But with the Porsche marque, I feel that you will experience fewer hassles all weekends than your non-Porsche marque brothers. This has been my experience...and as the luck of the Irish would have it, I am going to the track this weekend, Buttonwillow!!!

Cloud964

When people start to say my car is better than your car... and things of that nature, you know you can't win. Drive what you think is the best within your budget. If people think their yugo is the best, hey, more glory to them. If people think their WRX is better than a 911, good for them. I know what I enjoy... and why.

Arthur Del Mundo

Hey wait a second, we have to remind ourselves that our car ended production in 1998. That was 5 years ago, and alot of automotive technology has advanced during that time. We have to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. If you compare the 993 to any car made during the same time period, then the 993 would be up there in the numbers.

I am quite happy with my "new" 993 (just bought it yesterday). I could have spent my $35K on a brand new car with more HP, newer technology, a warranty, etc., but nothing gave my the same thrill and enjoyment of driving a 993.

sy308

One more point to consider:

The latest car mags are featuring the Jap Zero (Mitsubishi) Lancer is now available with a 4 cyl turbo motor with hp over 270. What really catches my eye and thoughts is how this package is so close in configuration to the Porsche 944. Look how many years it has taken the immitators to catch up the the "real thing".

Clearly, engine technology is much more developed than it was 15-20 years ago. It is far easier for manufacturers to develop engines much more hp than previously. Buyers find it really attractive to spend $30K and get a high performance car than $60K.

I have driven the 350Z last fall. It was awkward to shift. The position of the stick is quite far back. The handling was good, but not as crisp as my 993. For the money, it will attract lots of young buyers. Look for similar cars from the other manufacturers do this as well. Ultimately, this will impact prices on older Porsches. Their performance/dollar will not be as exclusive as it once was.

spinning disc

I think this was my original point, not that a WRX is better than a 993, but that the dynamic bar is rising and it is logical to be stuck at a place where you have to wonder: "am i missing anything?"

personally, i come from a more visceral car, a supercharged S52 M coupe. and that car has a better shifter, more torque, same scary handling, and inferior brakes. but it was a lot punchier to drive. i miss that in the 993. short of the twin turbos, there is not a lot to be done to improve the low end punch because that is not the nature of the engine.

anyone who has driven the new 320hp Porsche powerplant would understand what variocam plus can do for a power curve, i.e. FLAT versus peaky.

i also bought this car despite it being a porsche because i was curious to see if i was missing anything. i was missing out, but not to the extent that i thought, and given the way the automotive world has gone in the past 5 years, i think that is pretty fair. in the year 2003, the car is dynamically a tad underwhelming. in the final analysis, its pedigree and je-ne-sais-pas quotient may not be enough to make it a keeper for me.