Maybe purchasing a 993--advice needed (long)
06-12-2001, 01:09 AM
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Maybe purchasing a 993--advice needed (long)
There's a '95 coupe for sale with (get this) 194,000 miles. I can purchase it for $27-28k. I saw and drove the car, and from what I can tell (I'm not a mechanic, but I'm not naive enough to look at the cosmetic side only--engine purred like a kitten) if someone told me it had only 100,000 miles, I'd believe him. The owner drives about 120 miles (almost all highway) round trip for work. He's got all of his records and he appears to take good care of it. Car is on its original clutch (due to so many highway miles? How long can a clutch last? It felt really good and was engaging near the floor).
The one issue (besides the mileage)is that in 1996 he was in an accident (hit on the left tire, needed new axle, etc. to the tune of $15k, about 50/50 parts vs. labor). Kelly blue book is $25,000 trade in, $38,000 retail, without depreciation for accident.
Of course, I'd get a PPI before purchasing. Assuming it's ok, what do you think? My concern is that if I try to sell it in five years, I'll have a 230,000 mile ten year old car with an accident, and will get something like $17k for it. Am I off base? What do ya all think? A quick reply would be *greatly appreciated.* Thanks in advance.
Jon
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: JonSeigel ]
The one issue (besides the mileage)is that in 1996 he was in an accident (hit on the left tire, needed new axle, etc. to the tune of $15k, about 50/50 parts vs. labor). Kelly blue book is $25,000 trade in, $38,000 retail, without depreciation for accident.
Of course, I'd get a PPI before purchasing. Assuming it's ok, what do you think? My concern is that if I try to sell it in five years, I'll have a 230,000 mile ten year old car with an accident, and will get something like $17k for it. Am I off base? What do ya all think? A quick reply would be *greatly appreciated.* Thanks in advance.
Jon
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: JonSeigel ]
06-12-2001, 02:10 AM
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Lot depends on PPI and how much of a gambler are you. If it comes out clean, maybe is OK. Then again, with that mileage, ANYTHING could go without warning. You say you're not a mechanic - that means that anything that goes wrong, you're paying big bucks to fix. More reason to avoid it. If you were a handyman type, might be more inclined to tell you to buy it.
Everything I've always read sez buy the newest and best condition car you can find. If you can't afford $45K for a reasonable condition/mileage car, I'd say avoid this one and wait till your resources are better.
Everything I've always read sez buy the newest and best condition car you can find. If you can't afford $45K for a reasonable condition/mileage car, I'd say avoid this one and wait till your resources are better.
06-12-2001, 03:12 AM
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I'd be less concerned with what you sell it for in 5 years than what problems you might have in between. The previous owners have lost about $60K (in today's replacement dollars for an as-new 993, with taxes and a few options). That's about $12K/yr or 30 cents a mile, versus your projected $10K total in 5 years, or $2K/yr. Unless you run into engine rebuild/clutch/transmission, then it might cost you another $12K.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1995/por...ized+Appraisal
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1995/por...ized+Appraisal
06-12-2001, 03:26 AM
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Jon,
I would forget it if I were you. With that mileage, anything could go wrong anytime without any warning.
But well, nice to know a 993 could last that long without major problems
I would forget it if I were you. With that mileage, anything could go wrong anytime without any warning.
But well, nice to know a 993 could last that long without major problems
06-12-2001, 08:34 AM
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I would get the car thoroughly checked out mechanically eg by a Porsche mechanic. Was the repair by a Porsche main service centre , did the car need to be put on a jig?
How many previous owners, Why is the guy selling it now? Has it had a recent service that suggested further work$$$ ?
I would also try and lower the price further ~$22000, irrespective of the answers to these questions. At this price if it checks out mechanically it would be worth buying, bearing in mind the risks outlined above. But this is just my opinion, the others also have a fair point.
Tito.
How many previous owners, Why is the guy selling it now? Has it had a recent service that suggested further work$$$ ?
I would also try and lower the price further ~$22000, irrespective of the answers to these questions. At this price if it checks out mechanically it would be worth buying, bearing in mind the risks outlined above. But this is just my opinion, the others also have a fair point.
Tito.
06-12-2001, 10:06 AM
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JonSeigel,
I agree with some of the points raised but in particular my input and opinion on the matter would be as regards price.
I do not think there is a good enough basis for you to find a benchmark price for a 95 993 with that kind of mileage - its like finding a "comp" price for an isolated house in a desert (okay, an exaggeration to make a point). And so most comparisons/benchmarks will prompt you to raise your price over the real value of this car.
Thus I would recommend that you either
1) raise your budget just a bit to get a better value/price ratio OR, if that is not in plan, then
2) go for a lower mileage 964 model car
with a sound history, etc. OR
3) negotiate harder and lower the price based on mileage and accident (sorry, forgot to write this main point earlier)
Best of luck and, whatever you decide, you will have fun!!
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Ran ]
I agree with some of the points raised but in particular my input and opinion on the matter would be as regards price.
I do not think there is a good enough basis for you to find a benchmark price for a 95 993 with that kind of mileage - its like finding a "comp" price for an isolated house in a desert (okay, an exaggeration to make a point). And so most comparisons/benchmarks will prompt you to raise your price over the real value of this car.
Thus I would recommend that you either
1) raise your budget just a bit to get a better value/price ratio OR, if that is not in plan, then
2) go for a lower mileage 964 model car
with a sound history, etc. OR
3) negotiate harder and lower the price based on mileage and accident (sorry, forgot to write this main point earlier)
Best of luck and, whatever you decide, you will have fun!!
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Ran ]
06-12-2001, 10:40 AM
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Purely gut response, but with that kind of miles and an accident, $27-28k sounds quite expensive to me. What was the cost of a '95 Coupe new? $60,000? If so, seller is taking a 55% financial depreciation. With 194,000 miles, is the remaining useful life 430,000 miles (if useful life is linear to financial life)? Not scientific, just gut...
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06-12-2001, 10:55 AM
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I think Laurence has a good point - remember 993s are still fairly "new" and the market for them is strong. I think this may be prompting you to find ways to overlook the starship mileage and view this car as a "bargain" for a relatively new car.
I would think about the difficulty of selling it in 5 years with say 230k to 250k miles - the 993 will no longer be remotely "new" and rank much more amidst the pack of 993s, 964s, etc. SO any buyer would more likely heavily discount the car, or buy something lese with fewer miles - and those buyers who in 5 years are looking for the "classic" 993 would not be interested in one with that much mileage IMHO.
So all told, this is a 993 which MAY cost big bucks in maintenance and almost certainly be worth very little in 5 years. But this is just MHO - it may run like a watch for 5 years and then you might find the perfect buyer.
If it were me I wouldn't gamble with that sort of money - I would buy an older years but less miles 964 etc. I would leave myself a budget for tweaking it into perfect condition / upgrading it and have a BLAST.
There are too many stories of someone buying the bargain car only for it to become a money pit ................
I would think about the difficulty of selling it in 5 years with say 230k to 250k miles - the 993 will no longer be remotely "new" and rank much more amidst the pack of 993s, 964s, etc. SO any buyer would more likely heavily discount the car, or buy something lese with fewer miles - and those buyers who in 5 years are looking for the "classic" 993 would not be interested in one with that much mileage IMHO.
So all told, this is a 993 which MAY cost big bucks in maintenance and almost certainly be worth very little in 5 years. But this is just MHO - it may run like a watch for 5 years and then you might find the perfect buyer.
If it were me I wouldn't gamble with that sort of money - I would buy an older years but less miles 964 etc. I would leave myself a budget for tweaking it into perfect condition / upgrading it and have a BLAST.
There are too many stories of someone buying the bargain car only for it to become a money pit ................
06-12-2001, 11:03 AM
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Jon,
I agree with Ray: Buy the best car you can find. Another relevant cliche': "Pay now or pay later".
To me, high mileage is not so much of a disincentive, as long as I racked it up or really know the person who did. A well-built, high-mileage car that has been babied can be a great buy - often because most in the market do not want the car.
However, an accident is another issue entirely. I would never buy a high-end car that had any know body work, regardless of how cheap it was.
Given the mileage, year, and accident history, the price is really not that good. You should be able to find a 95 coupe with no accident history and reasonable mileage (maybe 50-70K) for only $10-12K more. Maybe even less.
Good luck with your decision.
I agree with Ray: Buy the best car you can find. Another relevant cliche': "Pay now or pay later".
To me, high mileage is not so much of a disincentive, as long as I racked it up or really know the person who did. A well-built, high-mileage car that has been babied can be a great buy - often because most in the market do not want the car.
However, an accident is another issue entirely. I would never buy a high-end car that had any know body work, regardless of how cheap it was.
Given the mileage, year, and accident history, the price is really not that good. You should be able to find a 95 coupe with no accident history and reasonable mileage (maybe 50-70K) for only $10-12K more. Maybe even less.
Good luck with your decision.
06-12-2001, 11:53 AM
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Jon,
Let me offer a slightly differing viewpoint...this from the realm of light aircraft, so hang on!
I've recently come to view the investment in a Porsche as akin to investment in a light aircraft (Cessna, Piper, etc). This may seem an odd comparison, but the bottom line is that both vehicles have some asymptotic residual value if maintained properly that is a significant percentage of their original value. A 1970 model Cessna 182 which sold new for $84K, with complete logbooks, and a less than TBO engine, will fetch between $80-$150K (roughly) in todays market - regardless of the total number of hours on the airframe (as long as it has been inspected and is in good mechanical condition)
By the same token, a 1983 911 SC(I'll choose a more recent year so as to avoid the appreciation of the 70s cars) In sound mechanical condition with a engine at less than TBO (~250K miles for the sake of argument) will fetch $12 - $20K on the market, regardless of the mileage on the car, (once again, assuming that the rest of the car has been inspected and is in good mechanical condition) Based on a $28,000 retail when new, this is a significant percentage of the original value.
This represents the amortized value over time - and they are pretty attractive for a 911, of any vintage. But as with an aircraft, you have to be aware of the yearly fixed and variable costs. Experience has shown that 911s on average need about $1500/yr in service. You may not see this figure go out the window every year - but you will make up for it in big services (clutch, engine overhaul, etc). Thus the first mile you drive the car every year will cost you $1500. Regardless of current mileage. The variable costs are things that are related to how often you drive the car (Gas, Tires, AC recharge).
The car you speak of has likely undergone it's full depreciation - and it's likely close to the amortized asymptotic value over time (the car's value, regardless of actual mileage, if in good working condition). When I bought my '95 993 Cpe in March, I calculated (based on market observation & historical analysis, and my father's owning and maintaining p-car's for 30 yrs) that the likely asymptotic value of the 993 series was likely to be ~35K - this due to the last-of-the line air cooled engines, refined suspension, rarity of the bodystyle over time, etc...
Here's what I think about this car:
190,000 mi is close to TBO for the 3.6L engine on the '95. Being that these have been highway miles, I would put actual TBO at 220 - 250 K - but be aware that you might need to overhaul at any time. A factory new engine will cost you $10K ($15K w/ the clutch) - a good thorough overhaul will be $8K ($12K with the clutch). Assuming *Nothing* else is wrong with the car (Power Steering, Rust, etc) This puts the value at ~$20K - $23K, depending on when you want do do the overhaul. You *WILL* have to do the overhaul at some point soon - so don't be tempted to pay more for a clean running but high-mileage engine. Get the car for $21K or so, and prepare to put $15K in over 2 years to keep it going strong!
Of course, I love high-milage 911s, so take this with a grain of salt - grin. Anyone know where to get Porsche mileage badges ?
Sorry for the longish post,
cheers,
sean
Jon,
Let me offer a slightly differing viewpoint...this from the realm of light aircraft, so hang on!
I've recently come to view the investment in a Porsche as akin to investment in a light aircraft (Cessna, Piper, etc). This may seem an odd comparison, but the bottom line is that both vehicles have some asymptotic residual value if maintained properly that is a significant percentage of their original value. A 1970 model Cessna 182 which sold new for $84K, with complete logbooks, and a less than TBO engine, will fetch between $80-$150K (roughly) in todays market - regardless of the total number of hours on the airframe (as long as it has been inspected and is in good mechanical condition)
By the same token, a 1983 911 SC(I'll choose a more recent year so as to avoid the appreciation of the 70s cars) In sound mechanical condition with a engine at less than TBO (~250K miles for the sake of argument) will fetch $12 - $20K on the market, regardless of the mileage on the car, (once again, assuming that the rest of the car has been inspected and is in good mechanical condition) Based on a $28,000 retail when new, this is a significant percentage of the original value.
This represents the amortized value over time - and they are pretty attractive for a 911, of any vintage. But as with an aircraft, you have to be aware of the yearly fixed and variable costs. Experience has shown that 911s on average need about $1500/yr in service. You may not see this figure go out the window every year - but you will make up for it in big services (clutch, engine overhaul, etc). Thus the first mile you drive the car every year will cost you $1500. Regardless of current mileage. The variable costs are things that are related to how often you drive the car (Gas, Tires, AC recharge).
The car you speak of has likely undergone it's full depreciation - and it's likely close to the amortized asymptotic value over time (the car's value, regardless of actual mileage, if in good working condition). When I bought my '95 993 Cpe in March, I calculated (based on market observation & historical analysis, and my father's owning and maintaining p-car's for 30 yrs) that the likely asymptotic value of the 993 series was likely to be ~35K - this due to the last-of-the line air cooled engines, refined suspension, rarity of the bodystyle over time, etc...
Here's what I think about this car:
190,000 mi is close to TBO for the 3.6L engine on the '95. Being that these have been highway miles, I would put actual TBO at 220 - 250 K - but be aware that you might need to overhaul at any time. A factory new engine will cost you $10K ($15K w/ the clutch) - a good thorough overhaul will be $8K ($12K with the clutch). Assuming *Nothing* else is wrong with the car (Power Steering, Rust, etc) This puts the value at ~$20K - $23K, depending on when you want do do the overhaul. You *WILL* have to do the overhaul at some point soon - so don't be tempted to pay more for a clean running but high-mileage engine. Get the car for $21K or so, and prepare to put $15K in over 2 years to keep it going strong!
Of course, I love high-milage 911s, so take this with a grain of salt - grin. Anyone know where to get Porsche mileage badges ?
Sorry for the longish post,
cheers,
sean
06-12-2001, 03:22 PM
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Let me add a differing opinion from the norm here if I might:
I believe (you did not say for sure your situation) that you might be in the same boat I was in about 9 months ago. I know I wanted a 911 and I was adamant that it had to be a 993. I knew that to be in my price range I had to find a high mileage car. After about 6 months of looking and calling and driving, I found my car under my nose in the local newspaper. It is a 95 with 82,000 miles where the owner was asking 37,500. After the PPI it was determined the car needed valve cover seals, timing chain cover seals and a 90,000 mile service. Factoring in these services, I bought the car for $32,500 and never looked back. If I had utilized Rennlist more I also would have factored in a new wiring harness (at least $1000) and a door check fix. I took the owner at his word that the new door check would be $50. Ended up costing $350 at the good body shop. For a total purchase price of $31,000, but I am not compalining.
I know how much a clutch costs and am prepared to pay it when needed. With that said, I expect the car to run for a long time with the proper maintenence and upkeep that I lavish on the car.
My only hesitation is the accident. I would consider a trip to the high end body shop in your area (not where he took it) part of the PPI. I do not know what they will say so I can not recommend a course of action here, but you should kow what to do depending on their report.
In closing let me say that I am still (9 months later) estatic about my purchase every time I get int he car - every day since it is my daily driver - and feel that I made the correct decision. I know 90,000 miles is a lot of miles, but these cars are made well and should last a long time if properly taken care of. I love my car and willonly get rid of it when I find the perfect cup car.
I wish you luck, but I would not be too afraid of the mileage as long as you go in with your eyes open. If you can afford a little more money, maybe you should wait for a slightly lower mileage car to get your 993 like I did.
Good luck,
I believe (you did not say for sure your situation) that you might be in the same boat I was in about 9 months ago. I know I wanted a 911 and I was adamant that it had to be a 993. I knew that to be in my price range I had to find a high mileage car. After about 6 months of looking and calling and driving, I found my car under my nose in the local newspaper. It is a 95 with 82,000 miles where the owner was asking 37,500. After the PPI it was determined the car needed valve cover seals, timing chain cover seals and a 90,000 mile service. Factoring in these services, I bought the car for $32,500 and never looked back. If I had utilized Rennlist more I also would have factored in a new wiring harness (at least $1000) and a door check fix. I took the owner at his word that the new door check would be $50. Ended up costing $350 at the good body shop. For a total purchase price of $31,000, but I am not compalining.
I know how much a clutch costs and am prepared to pay it when needed. With that said, I expect the car to run for a long time with the proper maintenence and upkeep that I lavish on the car.
My only hesitation is the accident. I would consider a trip to the high end body shop in your area (not where he took it) part of the PPI. I do not know what they will say so I can not recommend a course of action here, but you should kow what to do depending on their report.
In closing let me say that I am still (9 months later) estatic about my purchase every time I get int he car - every day since it is my daily driver - and feel that I made the correct decision. I know 90,000 miles is a lot of miles, but these cars are made well and should last a long time if properly taken care of. I love my car and willonly get rid of it when I find the perfect cup car.
I wish you luck, but I would not be too afraid of the mileage as long as you go in with your eyes open. If you can afford a little more money, maybe you should wait for a slightly lower mileage car to get your 993 like I did.
Good luck,
06-12-2001, 04:42 PM
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Jon, I don't think you should buy this car. For $25,000 you can buy a very appealing earlier model with much lower miles and no accident history. Actually, $27-28K that you mention will buy a LOT of car.. maybe a late 80's/early 90's with 35,000 miles on it.
Do your homework.. there are many nice Porsches for sale. See the link below, and, by all means, get Autoweek and scan the many cars for sale each week in there. And, if you haven't done so, check out Rennlist Classifieds too! Good luck to you... and take your time to get what you really want.
Porsches for Sale
Do your homework.. there are many nice Porsches for sale. See the link below, and, by all means, get Autoweek and scan the many cars for sale each week in there. And, if you haven't done so, check out Rennlist Classifieds too! Good luck to you... and take your time to get what you really want.
Porsches for Sale