salty1

Thank you all in advance!

Realizing I am only at a registered user status, any of your input and insight would be greatly appreciated. I recently had my 95 993 Cab w/50.5mi at the dealership for the wire harness replacement(WHR). While in for the WHR I had the belts and tensioner replaced as well as an oil change. During the WHR the dealer called to tell me of a couple oils leaks. I went to the dealer and witnessed the area of the leaks. Oil is leaking from both lower valve cover gaskets which is fairly evident and oil is leaking at, near or above the cooling fins of the drivers side head towards the rear(back) of the engine and coming down the drivers sidfe housing. They are telling me this is internal and the engine needs a seal job to the tune of $7,000 OMG Choke Choke!!! The valve cover gaskets will be replaced very shortly by a local shop. Have not yet gotten his opinion and will get it when gaskets are replaced.

So, my question(s)! How likely is it for a my95 w/50.5Kmi to need this kind of job? What would cause the seals to go bad and oil to leak from there? Is there another area where the oil could be leaking from such as above the timing chain housing? More questions to follow I'm sure! And my apologies for not knowing the correct engine part names!! Still learning!

95 993 Midnight Blue Cab
Atlanta, Georgia

Edward

Salty1,

I'd just tightened the nuts that hold down the cam chain cover (check 'em, mine were just a bit loose), and you could do the valve cover gaskets yourself (but if you have a trusted independent do it, certainly cheaper than a dealer). If you don't have any actual drips on the floor, or even if you do and it doesn't bug you (I've got a '77 Alfa, now let's talk drips) I wouldn't worry.
For reference, I own a '95 with about 71K and no "drips" or any evidence on the garage floor, but I do have evidence of seepage around the areas you mentioned. What you're describing seems wholly normal, and perhaps your dealer is being a bit overcautious, here (giving him the benefit of the doubt). Get an opinion from a wrench you trust, but I'd pass on the dealer and just keep an eye on it. Hope this helps!

Edward

salty1

Thanks Edward

Drips don't bother me too much, just got to keep these boys full of oil! I am confident of replacing the gaskets myself, but the only concern/fear I have is when removing the heat exchangers, there is the good possibility of shearing off one of the rusted/encrusted bolts/nuts. I don't have the proper tools to drill out the old and replace. Any advice!

Edward

Hi Salty,

I replaced both valve cover gaskets on the exhaust side and the heat exchangers come off really easily. All you need are good basic hand tools, but you will need a long allen socket to reach the allen heads "through" the heat exchangers...about 5" long and 6mm, or was it 8mm? Sorry I'm not in my garage.
Some here have posted that they've changed the gaskets w/o removing the heat exchangers. Frankly, I'm not sure how they did it given the angle of approach on a couple of the bolts. I removed the the exchangers (again, easy) so I could work squarely over each bolt for fear of stripping allen heads. But if others have done it without removal, I suppose it's possible. Maybe a few tablespoons of oil comes down with the covers, but otherwise, it's a clean/straightforward DIY, IMO. Let me know if you've got any other q's.

Edward

Robert Henriksen

Ed, an hex key with a ballhead on the long end goes a long way towards making the lower valve cover bolts removable w/o removing the heat exchanger.

The good reason to avoid removing the heat exchanger is that the gaskets for it are $90/side, retail. If you want to reuse them, they should be annealed first. Either way, I'd rather take a bit longer & work around the exchangers.

salty1

Thanks Ed and Robert

Being one who definetly tries to reduce costs when possible by being a DIYer, I agree with Robert regarding the $90/side cost. This and Robin's site are great for the DIYer. I guess a little liquid wrench and patience would save me $325 except for parts to have both gaskets replaced by the local shop. BTW they are not dropping the heat exchangers to do the job. They are charging me for 4 hours labor plus ($30) gaskets. How many hours did it take you guys?

Mr Michael B

I for one did not drop the exchanger when I did a replacement for a seeping lower gasket.

It did take TWO hours from start to finish that way though (including cleaning related bits). And that was just for ONE valve cover (passenger side).

I have the ball end hex wrenches, but mainly used a rachet w/ a hex end socket (and my fingers).

Robert Henriksen

Sheesh, I did mine in *maybe* an hour per side, and that was taking my time!

Mr Michael B

Wellll surrre! You did it in an hour...

Lets see. I do have an excuse around here somewhere...

Ummmm,

My dog ate it? (damn, that one worked in grade school... Once).

Ah well, I was day dreaming about searching for JimBob and having him become a Rennlist Member?

No, that was not it.

Okay okay,

I had the Barret Jackson auction on TV in the garage, and was watching it half the time (amazed that anyone would buy the "Nash Bridges" Hemi Cuda clone for $135K and it did not even have a Hemi in it).

Not good enuf?

I was also detailing my rocker panel (read: beating the crap outta it) as I did an oil change at the same time...

Awwwh heck. The job was a beeach. I dunno how you did it in an hour. I think I took 15 minutes just to figure out how to wiggle the valve cover out from the muffler bracket... Hey! Did you take the muffler bracket off???

Geezz, thats what I get for leaving the muffler on.

Thank you sir may I have another.

Thank you sir may I have another.

salty1

Michael B. /Robert

Just got out of a meeting. Well if *Mr Henriksen* Robert can do it in an hour a side, Sure He Can!!...., Maybe I should fly him (you) in from where is that? Oh yeah, Houston!! The $325 should pay for a round trip ticket, the cost of the gaskets and a good bottle of scotch. Wait I think there might be some dough left over, so invite some other rennlisters from Atlanta and have a 993 beer party! And get Robert back the same day!!!

Dave Crellin

If the shop is quoting $7k for an internal job, it could be that they are thinking that the leaks are coming from the "through-bolt seals". there are 24 of these bad-boys, and it requires an engine drop.

cheap parts, big labor. when my engine was out for the carbon build up job (at 45k miles) i had them changed. one was beginning to leak.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Finally, I have been wating 4 years for someone to ask about this. Lets get this topic back on subject. There are no archives to check on this one since I first asked about it on the old format board.

Anyway, I bought my 95 with 80k miles on it 4 years ago. First place I took it was a dealer where I was friends with the service manager. They had to do some routine stuff to get it up to snuff. Anyway, told me the same thing, I needed a complete rebuild for $14k to fi the case through bolt leaks. I about fell out of my chair since I had owner the car for a week and the PPI had not said anything about this.

So I panicked and flipped through my Excellence magazine and tried to call Bruce Anderson and anyone else who would listen. Couldn't get a hold of anyone. Finally found rennlist and decided to skip the major surgery.

Jump to the present. I sold the car last week with 110k miles, so I put 40k on it in almost 4 years. Went to the track and drove it hard a lot - probaly 8 times a year. Did the car ever blow up - no. Did the motor ever self combust and burn to the ground - no (but the bad harness could have caused that). Did the motor ever let go and dump 12 quarts of oil on the backstraight at VIR at 140mph and 6700 rpms in 5th gear - no!.

Bottom line, I would take your chances with the case through bolts. Put an oil absorb pad on the garage floor with duct tape and change it every couple of months. Enjoy the oil smell when you turn on the heater and drive baby, drive. My reasoning was that if the motor lets go due to the leaks at the case through bolts, it needed to be rebuilt anyway, and you wont do any extra damage. Just check the oli level more frequently - especially at the track.

Good luck and I hope this lone sane voice of reason put your fears at rest a little.

E. J.

PS - if you don't fix it now and it blows up because of that, don't come looking for me. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

PPS - nice friend at the dealer right - tried to get $14k from me.

salty1

Firstly,
Thanks to all who responded!!

E.J. I appreciate your candid response to this situation. I too checked and read most every oil leak thread I could find and found nothing pertaining to this problem. Very Glad to know you tracked your car and no problems (Blown engine). My concern (now diminished) mirrored what you said about blowing the engine. It will let go when it wants with or w/o help from me. Each engine is just a little bit different. Not going to worry. I don't mind the oil drips just gotta keep the "life blood" topped off. All my other drivers were "water pumpers" so an oil smell meant real trouble. These babies an oil smell is heaven!!!! Always loved a good oil smell! One day I will figure how to put in the smiley faces.

PS Fear not, Advice is exactly just that.
PSS Is he still a friend????

Robert Henriksen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Michael B.:
<strong>

{snip}

Awwwh heck. The job was a beeach. I dunno how you did it in an hour. I think I took 15 minutes just to figure out how to wiggle the valve cover out from the muffler bracket... Hey! Did you take the muffler bracket off???

Geezz, thats what I get for leaving the muffler on.

Thank you sir may I have another.

Thank you sir may I have another.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Damn, if I'd've known your manhood was going to just shrivel up & disappear like that, I would've kept quiet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

(And for what it's worth, I did leave the muffler (and muffler bracket) on...)