C4S4ME

I've seen literally dozens of threads in the last several weeks that threaten to make a formerly very friendly environment much less inviting.

As much as I can appreciate the efforts of the likes of E.J., DFJ1, and many other senior users or Gurus, I feel that a point has been missed: A forum - even with a great search feature - is simply not a FAQ.

A FAQ is like a library - a forum is a pub.

One reads a FAQ or searches the archives of a forum in much the same way, and for similar reasons as going to the library - to quietly look up the answer to a question, and move on. Usualy, no one will ever know you were there.

A forum is a social gathering, like a pub. One poses questions in a forum for more reasons than pure fact-finding. It's about community, it's about chatting with fellow enthusiasts. Porsche's are rare enough for most of us, that we simply cannot talk with anyone locally, in person, about our cars. When someone asks about gears for the umpteenth time, maybe they just pulled up a seat at the pub bar, and want some discourse with a fellow enthusiast. If the senior users don't want to chat with these new potential friends, then why not just ignore the thread? The continual practice of saying "read the FAQ" seems analogous to having someone walk up to you in a pub, ask "how 'bout them Cubs?" and replying - there's an editiorial on the wall of the bathroom - can't you just go read that?

It was noted that E.J. politely "sent someone to the woodshed." I saw the search, and commend him on the results he got. But that's what a library is for. The result said only that one person, a Steve Reiner, answered the question 3 months ago. Well, to a new person here, is Steve the end-all of knowledge? If one person has THE answer, then wouldn't we all just listen to the Porsche guy at our dealerships? Maybe someone is looking for new information. Maybe someone wants to confirm Steve's answer (although I personally am sure Steve is right, and reliable in this example). Or maybe someone just bellied up to the bar and wants to say hi.

If a group of people don't want to respond repeatedly, I can certainly understand that and don't blame anyone for a second. Why is there a need to respond to questions with the internet equivalent of "hey idiot - someone already asked that. You're wasting your time here. Go look it up."

Maybe some people who have recently learned from the gurus around here will be proud to help the next person out and provide some input of their own.

I'd like to start asking questions, and start trying to help my fellow enthusiast, but I am discouraged that I will only be told to "read the FAQ." Can't a guy just say hello, have some friendly chatter, and enjoy the comraderie?

<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

993chaz

I to have become a little sceptical about asking questions. It's sad but I have now gone to people like Gert for most of my info. I'm curious if traffic is monitored on the board, and also curious as to if it has diminished slightly over the past few weeks with the "check the FAQ" statement.

Anyway, I will continue to ask, and those who want to reply can, those who don't can change the channel!!!

Fred R. C4S

Well said.

If I could, I'd buy you a "virtual beer"!

I've viewed and used this forum for a couple of years. Iv'e asked questions that have been asked before, and I've answered questions that have been asked before. The whole point of this is an exchange of knowledge and friendly social interaction. If we lose sight of this, we might as well spend our time on other things.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Fred R.

DC from Cape Cod

The FAQ is great but some parts are it are still meaningless to someone like me that has little or no understanding of an aftermarket suspension.

I just spent 2 weeks asking a ton of questions...the answers to most of these are not in the FAQ.

I am very appreciative to those that spent time answering these questions and I will try to repay their kindness by answering questions for others in the future.

Greg Fishman

I think the FAQ and the search are great tools. They enable you to ask a more informed, intelligent question and will help you get a more appropriate answer. When you just ask a very general "How do you change the oil filter" type question, you are going to get directed to do a search or to Robin's <a href="http://www.p-car.com" target="_blank">www.p-car.com</a> DIY pages. And rightfully so.

I think we all like to share experiences and offer help when needed, on our pride and joys but often there seems to be little thanks for that help and increased animosity towards the people offering the help.

Anir

C4S4ME,

First of all, welcome to the board. You bring up some valid points, but please remember that a FAQ and the board itself are not mutually exclusive. Why not puruse the FAQ's, and then ask your question with the benefit of a little background knowledge? You will likely learn more, stimulate an interesting conversation, and still enjoy your virtual beer - with the confidence that the library is right next door.

graham_mitchell

(Greg, I have to agree.) The FAQs and archives should be a starting point and then people should feel free to ask questions if they need more information or another opinion, etc or to raise an issue that is not in the FAQ or archives.

To use C4S4ME's pub analogy, imagine if every 5 minutes you were at a pub, a guy came up to you and asked the same question. You may not stick around very long...

I am a member of a few forums like this, and some are really drowning in posts by newbies of the same basic questions. I would not like to see that happen to the Rennlist.

I was a newbie here myself not long ago and was quickly given the 'search the archives' response by someone. Far from being scared off, it opened my eyes to just how much information is on the archives, and I have tried not to repeat an already existing thread since.

Just my 0.02...

Graham

Randy M

You dont want to go to the woodshed. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Dbltime

Being new to motorsports, this board and below average computer skills , I spent at least a year asking 100 questions that I am sure have been asked many times.

Thats what a Forum is...

Ask away I will help if I can <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

STLPCA

C4S4ME
Very astute & IMO correct observations for your 1st post and nicely presented too! Perhaps you've been here before in a past virtual life. Regardless, I agree that even a well done FAQ is not a substitute for a forum.

IMO, & with full recognition that it is a work in progress & with no desire to diminish the good intentions & hard work of the authors/contributors, the now ever present "FAQ" does a disservice to the collection of information & opinion that is Rennlist. I applaud Danny's initiative & effort in moving the concept forward. However, things have moved too fast. The project has had undesired results. Born of frustration and nurtured by excitment, it is a rapid compilation of selected & subjective posts, links, conclusions, opinions & other material which is difficult to maneuver, intimidates, misleads and discourages posters, and has varying degrees of reliability. IMO. It should be shelved and developed until it has achieved the level of excellence one hopes to find on this Board.

It seems obvious to me that newbies or not, people have felt reluctant to post questions for fear of being verbally pummelled. I've sensed a degree of hostility and intolerance. Certainly not the open, generally friendly forum of the past.

OK, I'm Nomexed head to toe. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

BTW C4S4ME, your profile doesn't reflect a friendly visitor to the pub.

yank

I agree with both ponts of view, but the way some members tell you to look at the faq or do a search is very rude and has no place in a pub or a fantastic forum such as this. I was very upset with how one member talked down to another and just felt is was wrong. We are all on this site becuse we share something in common. Some of us are more tech then others and some make up for there lack of knowledge in their passion for the cars. If you think that the question has been asked before and it's a waste of time, fine tell them where they might find the answer or simply do not click on the link, but ruddness has no place, Not anywhere.

Sorry for my rant but I was very upset last night and I'm glad that I'm Not the only one that was botherd by some of the recent posts.



<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

yank

Not sure what happend there! Sorry

All the Best Greg

Vinny '98 3.8 C2S

I agree that these "read the FAQ" responses are starting to go over the top. If anyone is "offended" by repetitive questions, then they simply don't have to answer them.
I posted the following to the Admin FAQ thread, and it's fitting to copy it here.

COPY OF MY POST TO ADMIN: FAQ THREAD &gt;&gt;&gt;
I think a FAQ is an excellent idea, and I appreciate all the work that you've been doing; however, I think it's a very different mode of communication than this discussion board.
FAQ's and search engines are terrific tools, and I recommend that everyone use them; however, I for one don't mind if someone asks a question that's been asked 5 times or 100 times in the past. Things change. Yes, you can search or go to a FAQ for tire info, "first time driver on track" info, or whatever; however, new equipment becomes available, your personal experience changes...my answers to a 3.8 upgrade would be very different today than they would 2 weeks after I got the upgrade, and most important, new people come to Rennlist that can offer different info and new ideas.

Is it that big a deal to answer a question that's been asked in the past? Plus you don't have to answer at all if you don't feel like it.

I really like the idea of a FAQ as long as it's still OK for someone to ask, for the zillionth time, "how is driving a tiptronic vs. a manual".

BTW...get the manual.
&gt;&gt;&gt;

User 4621

I'll comment as a relatively new user here.

This is an incredibly friendly and informative list for the most part. I never got the impression that I shouldn't ask a question, or even just chat about stuff. And if someone has a problem with either, they should feel free to kiss my (_*_). No one has any more or less right to be here, regardless of number of posts.

But there are various ways to ask a question. One way is to say "Hey, I don't feel like spending any time researching XYZ, can someone else do it for me? And make it snappy!" Don't be surprised if someone gets irate.

Another way to ask the same question is "Hey, I've noticed that past opinions about XYZ tend to be A, and my buddy down the road believes B, because of factor C. Is factor C really a factor? Thanks in advance for your help."

Going back to our virtual pub, if someone sits down next to you and says version 2 instead of version 1, isn't that a much better and friendlier way to start a conversation? Aren't you more likely to talk to the person and spend some effort to help him?

At the same time, some people just enjoy being constipated about minor things, I guess. Take the high road and ignore him, as he should have ignored you.

Ray Calvo

I have to go along with Anir and Graham. I was always taught one of the goals of education was to teach the student not necessarily the answer, but how to find the answer themselves. When they can do this, then they advance. To have the answer just handed to them accomplishes little.

Pardon me for this, but I think a lot of folks are lazy; they don't want do their own digging. So they ask questions and expect answers. Sorry, but do the archive searching and FAQ review first, then ask questions on what you found. I think you'll get a lot more from this forum that way.

Thoughts from an old f*rt who learned by digging into libraries when they had books with paper, when the most powerful computer was an IBM 360, when they had classes on how to use your sliderule - and who learned how to fix his cars (911 and otherwise) by the "school of hard knocks" (if you get in and screw something up, you'll generally not make the same mistake again).