4dRennwagen

Hi all,

I'm a few months into my search for a widebody 993. It's been a dream to own an air-cooled 911, ever since riding in my dad's '78 911SC as a child and working in Germany in the early 90s for a fellow who had a C4 cab he occasionally let me drive. Wife gave thumbs up (lovely lass!) for upcoming birthday (50). Budget is up to $130k for the right car but there seem to be a fair number of really nice ones in the $95k to $105k range. As my ad on Rennlist states, I'm looking for a nice silver, black or blue C4S in as nice condition as possible with as few miles as possible. I love options and would prefer that it has a bunch. The ideal car would probably have heated seats for my wife as well as motor sound and/or a mild aftermarket exhaust as well as ROW springs or Bilstein PSS10s to get the ride height down where it should be. I will drive the car regularly but probably won't add more than 1000-1500 miles a year. Enjoyment will center around being able to look at it in the garage or jump in and go, so I don't want a car with alot of needs, but a few minor projects are OK. Although I live in a small town, there's a shop with two Porsche-trained mechanics who are comfortable with air-cooled P-cars.

I have looked at a couple of cars in person and also driven a couple to get an idea of how ads correlate with reality. I nearly bought a very nice 33k mile Aerokit car for the $110k range but the deal fell through. With that in mind, I have been drawn to a couple of silver ones and would appreciate your collective opinion of them on how smart a purchase they would be:

1) 1997 Silver C4S with Aerokit at Town Porsche -- this car has alot of really nice options, including lots of carbon/aluminum bits, leather and factory-equipped Aerokit. They want $95k for it, which seems not unreasonable given the long list of factory options. It looks a little tired in the interior, with wear on the driver bolster but they apparently had a leather guy come patch it up. I probably wouldn't be afraid to drive it a little more since it already has nearly 50k miles. I like that it's located at a Porsche dealer so presumably they have been through the car properly. It has a number of little needs like the seats and also stuff like peeling paint on the rotors. Verdict--does it have too many needs?
2) 1997 Silver C4S with 22k miles at Sloan Motors -- this car apparently has few options but with 22k miles, it's condition looks to be outstanding. Price is $132k. I guess with this low mileage it's considered collector level. Sloan seems to have good reputation of quality cars with known histories. Verdict--hard to go wrong with this, right? But it's an awful lot of money...too much?
3) 1997 Silver C4S with exclusive carbon kit in Miami -- I love the options on this car--it's really got it all. But mileage is higher and it's not at either a Porsche dealer or Porsche specialist, so it's an unknown quantity with respect to service history. The dealer seems to cater to people wanting to buy some flash for monthly payments...not likely to be people who meticulously care for their cars. Rotor paint is peeling so presumably this car has some needs also. Although the options are fantastic on this car, it seems substantially overpriced at $108k for the mileage. Verdict--Stay away, particularly at that price?

Thank you for your opinions--there is invaluable wisdom in this group!!! If you see any other nice silver, black or blue widebody 993s, please don't hesitate to let me know about them!

rk-d

These are high prices. Widebodies are tough - there aren't that many of them and if you want a car now, there are not many options. I recently bought a 4S and I can relate.

Option 3 is ridiculously overpriced.

Option 2 probably meets your needs, if you truly intend on this being a garage queen. Famous last words though - I've put over a 1000 miles on my car in the first two months of ownership. These are addicting cars to drive. I do think $133k is too high for a 22k mile car. Maybe if it was <10k miles. I wouldn't assume a low miles car is problem free, btw. Ironically low miles can be a problem if it's just sat around for years.

Option 1 is closer to reality, but it is still on the high side of market value. It has supple leather seats. Not sure if those are harder to repair.

The most important thing is due diligence. Get a PPI from a third party. Inspect the car yourself, carefully. Drive it. Scrutinize the service history and records. Check paint meter. If you can talk to the prior owner, do so. Do not fall in love with the car until after all of the above is done.

aircooledpurist

Does it absolutely HAVE to be a wide body? I know they are more rare and more valuable,,,, BUT, I have also heard time and time again a comparable narrow body car actually drives better. For instance.... I just purchased a 1995 C2 in like new condition with 17,500 miles for 70K. Silver/full black leather. It had just had about 10K in overkill maintenance (new suspension, complete new brakes, new battery, hoses, belts, tires, etc) in the last 500 miles. The car drives like new. There are a few minor cosmetic things I have to work on and it has a small de-lamination on the front windshield.

So I have to ask.... is that slightly wider rear stance really worth another fifty thousand dollars? I can't imagine my ownership experience is any less. My car drives awesome. Sounds awesome, smells awesome lol. I could not (would not) spend the extra 50k. Consider the "pedestrian" narrow body. Hell, you could buy a coupe AND a convertible. when you think about it THAT way..... slightly wider fenders.... or a second CAR. Buy a low mile coupe AND low mile vert. My guess is 10 years from now the combined value of the TWO cars will exceed the value of the single wide body. I think the "S" cars are reaching a peak. A really good narrow body car with true low miles has a lot of room to appreciate.

Just my 2 cents.

pp000830

OK - I distilled your posting down to the basics above,
All three cars seem over-priced, #2 &3 grossly so.
For the first one 50K miles is not much at all but be aware somewhere around 80k the clutch may need replacement & if the struts have not been replaced yet they will need to be replaced shortly. A 60K or even an 80K example with all the expensive stuff already done is probably the sweet spot on value for a car you are planning on driving. As it is further down the depreciation scale but can be a really solid car. In my opinion the interior features or lack thereof especially if aftermarket has a small incremental impact on value, same goes for performance enhancements or aftermarket wheels, for most folks they are undesirable at purchase, Condition of the interior can influence value a bit more.
Andy

4dRennwagen

(revised to quote the related comment)

4dRennwagen

Thanks for the advice and I appreciate your perspective particularly having been there. I agree about there not being many options, but at least there are some since I'm looking for relatively common colors. I have noticed alot of these cars sit on the sites for months, and in some cases 6+ months. The one on Sloan's site has been there for at least 4 months, so maybe that makes the price more flexible?

I think part of what has drawn me to option 1 is that it seems to be starting at a more realistic asking price.

aircooledpurist

What is left of the Sloan collection is being garaged in Fairfield CT. I would be more than happy to go down and have a look at it in person for you and then talk on the phone about what I find. I am really picky and I have known the owners of the Porsche shop where the sloan cars are being housed for 30 years.

rk-d

Any low miles WB in top tier condition, you will be paying through the nose. No way around it. There are just not enough of these things.

I think if you really want a WB, then wait it out until you find the one. Seems silly - just a few millimeters of fender and tire...but it's enough to really give the car an awesome presence, especially when lowered.

That said, short of buying a Rennlister car, I'd expect to put money into it after purchase.

4dRennwagen

Thanks for your reply. Good question...and a good point. If I hadn't been aware of the widebodies I would think the narrow bodies look great...but now my eyes are always drawn to the rear fenders. Going with a widebody car also means the 18" turbo twists come with the car as well as the big brakes. I know with the savings I can go buy whatever wheels I want as well as upgrade the brakes (arguably not necessary for the street) but then I'm pouring thousands of $$$ into it which I won't get back and I have to store or sell another set of wheels. Also, I am looking for a C4 (for the handling safety margin), and basically all of the Varioram cars that are 4wd are the C4S model 96-98. They did make about 500 '96 C4 coupes, but that's a lower number than C4S. I can't stand the basket handle rear brake light they had before '96. I'm not considering targas or cabriolets because I really like the lines of the coupe and love the bank vault solidity you get when you open/close the doors on a coupe.

You've given me a new thing to go search for, however...a 17k mile car for $70k seems like very good value but where did you find that? When I have seen very low mileage narrow-body cars they seem to be priced at $90k plus, so at that point it's not a value proposition.

4dRennwagen

Thank you for your reply. What do you think the actual realistic market value of #2 is? I am hesitant to even get involved with a negotiation if the starting price is so far above what it should be.

Car 1 supposedly had clutch done 2 years ago and some transmission work but I don't have any details. If struts need replacement that would be an excuse to give it the proper ROW ride height anyway, but I'm sure that's a $2k or $3k job, right?

I have been avoiding the 60k to 80k cars but maybe will give them more of a look. At 80k I'd be afraid that after a few years of fun it'll be close to the 100k mark and have a drastic drop in market value.

aircooledpurist

Like you are doing right now I had been looking online for about a year. My car came up at a classic car shop in LaJolla California. Ironically the owner lived in Boston, and had all the work performed at Eurowerks in Wethersfield, CT. I live in Fairfield, CT.

I called eurowerks and they assured me the car was excellent. They convinced me to forgo a PPI and not to bother flying out to see it. I got lucky. The funny thing is my car was purchased by a wealthy Porsche collector who also has three Porsche race cars and race teams. He had purchased my car just as a collector. Then he found the identical silver black C2S, bought it, and in turn put my car for sale. When I spoke to him, he is the one who told my that my narrow body car actually felt better to him than his new wide body C2.

I totally get the wide body thing. It's just that my car is really nice and really clean for SO much less $$.

A college friend just spent silly money on a 458 Ferrari. There are some interior carbon fiber bits that showed up on the options list at 67 thousand dollars. After playing with his car we got into my M3 comp package to go to lunch. He looked at the Carbon fiber mirrors, roof, dash and center console. It looks just like his but there is much more of it in my M. He asked what the carbon fiber cost. I told him it was included in the car... all in 72K. Makes you think.

tstafford

Below is the pricing data from our kind friend Jay (hopefully he doesn't mind my reposting since it is highly relevant to your question). You can see what actual cars have sold for to determine whether the cars are priced right or over priced. FWIW - The first one is priced a tad high but it's a dealer while the other two do seem high to me.

I just completed a similar search. My goal was to find a manual, wide body, any color except yellow, extra clean driver (not concours), sub 50K miles, stock or tasteful mods. Here's my results:

• Got what I was looking for in March - red C4S, manual, '98 w/ 28K miles, only aftermarket mod was Bilstein PSS10, options: hifi, motorsound, comfort, full power driver's seat, aerokit. Could have done w/o the aerokit but I wasn't going to pass on the car for that
• Pricing was very much in line with Jay's analysis
• I've put about $8K in to the car since purchase. Big chunks of that were tires, alignment, short shifter/shift rod, Becker BT upgrade, distributor caps, front sway bars, battery, lock actuator, new front carpeting, a couple of blown relays plus all the stuff that goes in to a 30K major. Valve cover gasket could use to be replaced and I'll do that in a month or so after I enjoy the car for a minute. Regardless of how clean a car you buy I think you should expect to have some initial work esp. with the low mileage cars. I could have gotten away with less work but I want the car to be as close to bullet proof as possible. And I wanted to know what my baseline is on all the maintenance items. I intend to drive the car and have. I think I've already eclipsed the mileage the previous owners put on it since 2012
• I have new seats heading my way and I'll put those in myself. They were pricey (a tad over $6K) but I think they'll be a tremendous addition to the car
• So b/w the purchase price, maintenance completed, seats, planned valve cover work and TN taxation I'm within spitting distance of your budget. Some will think this is a ridiculous amount to pay for a 993 and it may be. But the cars are pricey right now and my desired experience requires a willingness to pay up. Basically I wanted a close to new car experience in a 21 year old car - just like the pricing, that's arguably a ridiculous expectation but I've worked hard and that's what I want. I'm not willing to compromise on this particular purchase
• Even after fixing the oil seepage I'll still have few more things to do - wheel refinishing to remove chips, speaker replacement (OE are more or less blown), the infamous door pocket fix. Nothing urgent but still nits that will bug my OCD

Qualitative experience - above was the numbers and here's been my experience with the car more emotionally:

• I'm 47 so similar in age to you. I think you'll love the nostalgia of the car. It's what I hoped for. In many ways the car feels older than it even is. More late 80's than late 90's - most everything is analog and my fading memory is that cars were generally digital by '98
• I have some fast cars now and have driven/owned many. The 993 C4S is decidedly not fast but it's quick and feels faster than it actually is. I may get blasted for saying this but the 993 doesn't hold a candle to a modern Porsche in terms of handling. It may be more fun to drive but it empirically doesn't handle as well - assuming handling is defined as being stable/predictable during high speed braking, acceleration and cornering. The lack of handling capability lends itself very nicely to road enjoyment - you don't need to be way over the speed limit to enjoy the car. Not the case at all in a 991 - the only time my GT3 shines is on the track. Otherwise it's a chained horse
• People love the car. I get a similar amount of questions about the 993 as I do about the GT3 (Miami Blue is a magnet) and the questions are fun. It's generally nostalgia stuff - people have some memory of these cars (or other older 911s) they want to share. I've been asked if I'd sell it at a gas station, etc. Very good natured exchanges - there's a real affection for these cars out there. It's a treat to be an owner
• The car is better to drive than I expected. I've done two roadtrips in it - drove it home from Pittsburgh when I bought it and I've done Atlanta and back. Both trips were comfortable and (in a good way) event free. I'd expect you'll find you put more miles on it than you currently plan. It's just too much fun not to drive

Quick recommendations:

• I'd keep some dry powder in your budget for work you want to do right out of the gate. I doubt you can buy a low miles C4S that won't need at least a few things to get it where you want it
• If at all possible buy from an enthusiast. Less unknowns, their love of the car will show, possibly less initial work to do
• Don't skip the PPI regardless of anything else. I ended up paying for two PPIs on private sale cars and they were instrumental in helping me make what I'm confident was a good purchase. I was surprised to learn that Porsche dealers are happy to do PPI on 993. I had one done in Pittsburgh and one in Florida. They were of different levels of detail/price but sufficient to get me what I needed. Both included compression test/leak down which I think are worthwhile
• Paint meter the car unless you truly don't care. Arguably if you plan to own the car for a long time some paint work (as long as it was done right) doesn't matter. But it does to me and I wanted a car with none (or at worst a front bumper respray). Remember that the current owner may legitimately not know if there's been paint work and the Carfax could be inaccurate. The paint meter is a good final check

Net/net: I think you are on the right track. PM me if you think I can help on any questions. Folks were very kind to me when I was searching (and since then) so I'd love to return the goodwill.

Good luck and don't rush it,
Tim

rk-d

This is pretty spot on. The inventory is so small - it's really hit or miss in terms of getting peak value unless you have a very long term purchase horizon and can wait it out. That said, no matter what you pay, there is always someone who paid less and say that you paid too much.

aircooledpurist

. Thanks for a very enjoyable read. Very well said.

aircooledpurist

There is a clean C4S on Classiccars.com. White, 48,xxx miles, $109,000. worth a look.