mattg43

Hello all. This will probably be too long to read, and a bit convoluted. Im Sorry.

I am considering a new car, and something from Porsche is on my mind. I am mid 30s, life long automotive enthusiast, generally good to work on my own vehicles, while also happy to let a dealer with some things (most notably with some recent BMW issues)

I have limited track driving experience, and a Miata to play with there - but considering selling that to get into karting with a few other people. My commute to work is currently about 60 miles each way, but this car would only make that trip maybe once or twice a month.

I live in TX, so there wont be a ton of canyon carving, but I enjoy spirited driving. As you can guess by my Miata ownership, raw power is not a requirement, but fun/driving experience is. Ive had fun on fast bikes, Japanese sports cars, a handful of Bavaria's finest, and a few muscle cars for that torquey fun. Practically speaking, it may see an occasional SCCA track night or time trial, but this wont be a track car, either. Just a driver.

My general philosophy in cars was a "hierarchy", with plans over the years to move into sports cars further up the list, (things like a Clownshoe/E46 M3, C6/C7, Cayman, 911 - and fun projects along the way like a killer Ghia build, a couple of Jeeps, etc), but some things in life, and an encouraging wife, are letting me skip a couple of rungs, making getting into a Porsche a viable next step instead of climbing my ladder. I can afford the car, and general associated maintenance with a sports car - but I also want to be realistic in my expenses. I dont plan or want to plan for $5k a year in maintenance to do 3-5k miles a year, of course.

I generally have three options I am considering. Either starting with a 987 Cayman as the intro, as I am a huge fan of the car. I have liked it since it debuted, liking it more than the newer 911s. I have no kids, so I dont care about the practicality of a 2 seater, and the throwback of a pure sports car is always appealing. Or jumping back to the world of air cooled, and just digging in where my love of Porsche's came from. The 993 being a favorite, but I am generally a fan of all of them, though it seems that a 964 vs 993 is generally a wash in costs, and I like the 993 a touch more for the same money.

From my looking, I think I can get into a decent 993 in the 50-60k range - I am looking for a driver with good records, and hopefully a recent rebuild/reseal so I wont need to worry for a while.

The other option would be something a bit older, like a 3.2 Carrera, maybe an SC. But AC is important for my delicate self in TX summers...

TL;DR:

In short, am I setting myself up for woes and trouble by jumping into the P world with a 993, should I be looking elsewhere in the line for my first Porsche? Is it wise to jump in the deep end?

I know this is the 993 section and I expect some bias - but those of you that have been with the brand for years, be honest with me. I fully intend to be a 911 steward for the long haul, and dont want to sour the experience with my own bad decisions/impulse.

Also, of note - I have never driven any of the cars I am considering. This has been intentional to prevent me from making an unwise decision on the practicality of my extra vehicle decisions. I will plan on doing so over the summer.

rk-d

Modern cars won't get you the feeling of an older car, particularly an air cooled.

Seating position, sight lines, upright windshield, super thin A pillars and old school interior. The steering feel, the noise and the feeling of an old school rear engine car. It's really impossible to replicate that. Modern cars and the safety + emission requirements + market pressure have made it impossible.

So if you are wanting an air cooled car, I don't see the point of waiting. I have a hard time believing you'd regret it.

That said....

"I dont plan or want to plan for $5k a year in maintenance to do 3-5k miles a year, of course. "

Personally, I think this is going to be a problem.

gonzilla

The 993 is a great first Porsche. Was mine, and over 13 years later I can say that unless something extraordinary happens, I will be keeping it for the long haul. It’s got most of the soul of the old cars, with enough speed and modern creature comforts to keep you from getting bored or annoyed.

And yeah, in my experience, you won’t spend anywhere near $5k/year. That being said, when big stuff happens like clutches and rebuilds, it’s going to sting. So perhaps putting $5k a year away for a while isn’t a bad idea.

If you do end up trying to find a 993, rennlist is a great place to look. Most RLers know other RLers cars, and you can do a lot of research on the seller on here. But doing your due diligence before buying is important. Keep in mind that these cars are approaching 25 years old. Stuff goes wrong. It’s best to go into the purchase with both eyes open. Whatever you decide to do, best of luck in the hunt for your next car!

mattg43

Thanks for the replies. I have no issues with maintenance costs in general- Ive done 12 weeks transmissions rebuils (thanks for the part availability, Japan!), followed 3 days later by a new engine in the same car (timing belt tensioner failure on an interference engine), much time and dollars on fixing on the little seeps and minor oil leaks on other German cars, the known water pump issues for the last 3 decades on Bimmers (and the dealer wants $2k+ on a modern electric water pump on the 3L turbos, when you can do it from under the car in a short amount of time), and grew up with Mercedes (though to be fair, very reliable with the old inline 6s) and some of those repair costs. Me and RealOEM, bav auto, and ECS tuning have become friends for parts over the years. I have a 2 post lift at my dads garage that I put in when he built it, and my next house will have a separate workshop with the same.

Ive been in manuals for years and am not generally hard on clutches, and know how to shift (thought my heel/toe downshifts on track need work). From my understanding the drivetrain on these are generally pretty stout, outside of the standard seeping/drips?

Help me out on the costs though - I am not talking overall ownership to include oil changes, tires, and brakes, and insurance - those are par for the course on any vehicle, and I am prepared for extra costs there vs an Accord... I am looking at regular annual maintenance costs or recurring items that cost a ton. If we are talking a motor rebuild every 10 years, and clutch every other year at 2-3K, and an engine out service every 5 years - Why am I not looking at Ferraris, you know?

Do you mind elaborating/sharing some of your experiences?

evilfij

I bought my 117k Miles 95 993 a couple years ago. So far I did a full major service and belts and a few cosmetic things. I don’t care if it uses a little or or leaks a little (not sure it does either, I think I was slightly over filling it and even then it was like 1/2 quart per 1000 miles). Engine work and trans work is stupid money on Porsches, but as long as they are running fine who cares.

jcochran1

If you're willing to do your own maintenance then I think the 993 would be a great starting point, especially using this site and some others as resources. So go for it.

I bought mine 6 years ago when I was 30 years old and have put 58k on it during that time, and it has been very very reliable and reasonable to maintain during that time. I'm not rich so I do 100% of my own maintenance to date, but haven't needed to do a top end yet at 145k, but I'm saving for it so I can pay someone to do that. I worried about the costs to own this car a lot in the beginning, but its really been a great experience and I don't worry about it any more, I just enjoy the crap out of it. Would recommend.

dantonio

I'm a huge fan of the boxster/cayman. I've previously owned a 987 and currently have a 981 Boxster in addition to my 993. I always thought I'd sell it when I got the 993 but it's proven to be such a satisfying daily driver that I kept it. It's just so practical and comfortable, and I never have to worry about racking up extra miles, or minor wear and tear or damage. I personally think they are beautiful and unique cars and represent an excellent value in the sports car world. All the modern conveniences like cupholders and good AC make it very practical for the daily commute. Get a relatively low mileage example and you can be confident that you won't have major repair expenses any time soon. I definitely cherish my 993 more, but use it a lot less. The 993 I plan on keeping indefinitely, whereas the Boxster I would probably sell tomorrow if someone made me an offer. It isn't nearly as special and would be easy to replace. Sort of an expendable commodity.

It really depends on your desires and lifestyle. But I'm guessing you would use the two cars in very different ways. Cayman you'd probably drive every day, 993 would be more of a toy. Cayman is probably a better value in terms of fun per dollar, in my opinion. They hold their value remarkably well and you could easily drive one for a few years and not expect to spend much in repairs or lose much in value. 993 would cost significantly more to get into and maintain, and you'd use it less. It is obviously a more thrilling driving experience, you just have to ask yourself it it's worth it.

tstafford

I’ve owned a whole range of cars, many modern Porsches inc. various varieties of GT cars. I also race and do some track time in more modern Porsches. For me - the two best road car experiences in a Porsche have been the 996 GT3 and the 993. Boxster also had it’s charms. RK-D’s comments above about the 993 driving experience are spot on. I only wish I’d bought one earlier.

My two cents:
Repairs - I’m not super mechanical and I’m fairly OCD about my cars so I regularly use a mechanic for things others would poss do themselves (oil, brakes) so my maintenance costs are high. I think the bills will be tight against your budget in the early going - old cars generally need some work when you first buy them. It’s just how it usually is - you could get lucky. If my bills to maintain the 993 in top shape average $5K/year I’d be happy and that’s what I expect. My guess is over a longer period - say five years - it will probably beat those numbers

Road driving - the 993 can’t be beat. It’s not fast, but it’s quick and gets out of it’s own way. The low amount of power steering, brake pedal feel and cabin make for a very engaging driving experience. On the highway it’s a fine cruiser although cabin noise level is high by today’s standards. Shifter leaves a bit to be desired - rubbery feel. Mine’s in for an upgrade at the moment that I hope will improve on that.

Practicality - there’s room for two people and their luggage for a trip. The rear parcel shelf in the 911 is great for road trips. Seats are kind of crappy but that’s probably just one of the things you get in a 20+ year old car. On my list to replace my front seats soon

Track - there’s no way I’d put my 993 on the track. I’m skeptical about it mechanically because it’s lived most of it’s life with other people and none of them maintained it for track use. It’s no where near as safe as a modern car - all you need to do is sit in it to know that. And why put that stress on it? For the same money one could buy a 981S and that would be a much better occasional track car. Safety is number one for me on the track and it begins with the build of the car followed closely by **** attention to maintenance. Neither of those check the box in my 993. If I was going to track it, I’d want more safety equipment (seats, harnesses, bar) and I’d have someone go over it from a track perspective to see what needs to be done mechanically for that use

Recommendation - My bet is the newer a Porsche you buy, the better your repair cost/issues experience will be on average. Unless by buying an older one you are able to do more work on it yourself - less computer stuff, more access to the work, etc. If you’re patient and won’t be pissed if the car eats up most of your $5K/yr maintenance money, I think the 993 will be awesome. For sure a better driving experience than a newer one. If you’re open to other Porsches I think either a 997.2 or. 981 will give you a great experience too at your price point. I’d 100% expect those cars to beat your repair budget and I’m guessing you may be able to get a CPO car at those prices. They will be much, much better on the track.

Net/net: There’s some risk/reward consideration in the 993. I’d go for it but only you know how you’ll feel if it doesn’t go totally smoothly.

rk-d

If you were to amortize the total cost of maintenance over the lifetime of ownership, I'm sure you'd be under $5k/yr. I guess my point is that if rainy day big bills would be a problem, I'd be wary.

Alot of people, myself included, put money into these cars to get them fully sorted. But that's more out of desire than necessity. I didn't *have* to change out my shocks. They were dead, but not leaking. Changing them out was not cheap, but the net result was clearly worth it.

Same thing with my clutch - it works and I could extend it's life for another year, I'm sure. Probably longer. I'm electing to go ahead and swap it out with a low weight flywheel and RS clutch.

There are things where I had no choice, like steering rack, but alot of what I'm doing could probably be deferred if necessary.

BTW - re: Cayman. I owned a GT4. The 993 is honestly more fun. It's not as fast, but I've had alot more fun with it than any other Porsche I've owned.

NC TRACKRAT

Every once in awhile, I consider a Cayman, especially a GT4 but then I realize that I can't look at the engine w/o putting it up on jack stands...so forget that! IMHO, the 993 is the perfect balance between creature comforts of the newer and the older, classic Porsche 911. As long as you do due diligence in selecting a 993 with "good bones", you'll find that normal maintenance won't cost that much. OTOH, it's the "slippery slope" of mods and up-grades that will cost you!

PRSWILL

Remember, ANY 993 you buy is going to be 21+ years old. This alone will be a cause for some expensive items-even with low mileage, there are gaskets, rubber seals, bearings, belts, etc that wear and if not treated can lead to expensive repairs.
A couple of known issues that are expensive are 1) the Drive Rack. I replaced mine 2 years ago- cost $ 2500. 2) CV joints. The boots crack and if left unattended, can lead to total failure. you can have them repacked, or replace the entire Axle. I did this last year- 2 new axles were about $ 1,500- 2,000 If memory serves me right. 3) lower valve gaskets- these leak after time and are not terribly expensive to repair- I think about $ 200 bucks? 4) SAI valve. The real trick here is to get to the core of the issue. If you're valve guides are wearing, you're looking at a top-end rebuild and that's $ 6-7K. If it's truly just the gunked up valve- which will happen on all of these (96-98 models) with time, it's just a huge PIA job. I did this 2 years ago as well.
As others have said, these are really fun, visceral cars to drive. Totally different that a modern 911 - and by that I mean anything water-cooled ( 2001 +). Prices are not going down so it you want in, get specific and pull the trigger when you see the car you want. I have owned mine since 2013 and it's probably never going away.

fatmike

Drive the Cayman. Drive a 993. They are very different cars.

At some point you’ll notice the rear grip and buy the 993...or you won’t and you’ll get the Cayman.

This review does a nice job summing it up (I know you said 987, but it still mostly applies):

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...911-carrera-s/

Why not buy both?

/

wesr

Owning Porsches are a slippery slope because you fall in love with the cars. Yes you’ve got above average maintenance costs but don’t forget about upgrades costs. It’s always that little (or
lot) extra something to make it extra fun.

If you’re mechanically inclined you’ll be just fine for a first Porsche. You should definitely drive a few different years and models to get a feel. Plus it is the thrill of the chase after all!

Personally, I bought a ‘95 993 a couple months ago after owning an ‘87 3.2 Carrera, ‘06 997 S, ‘08 Cayman S, and ‘99 Boxster. Currently have a 981 Boxster Spyder. The 993 is my favorite (Spyder is close second) as it has a great blend of classic and some modern creature comforts. As others have said you can’t beat the air-cooled experience between the sound, feel, and handling. Good luck!

abiazis

Besides regular annual maintenance items that can be reviewed in service records on the cars you consider, the common things to look for in 993s, posted on this forum over the years, even with relatively low 50K mile cars, that are now over 20+ years in age for immediate review and possible repair assuming not a cabriolet as they need a totally separate maintenance budget:

• CV Boots may be torn and will need repair immediately as mentioned previously relative to axle damage
• Odometer cog wheel which wears out quickly if original - I suspect some 993s indicate less mileage than actually driven. When prices were on the rise a few years back, people may have ignored that repair
• A/C system as evaporators and valves wear out - $ 2500 repair for the whole system to be rebuilt
• Steering rack leaks
• Lower valve cover oil leaks
• Chain cover gasket leaks
• Check compression and leak-down in a PPI for top end rebuild possibility
• Weather stripping starting to dry out or wear or tear off - door jams, door handle gaskets
• Door checks being broken (clicking sound symptom) - $ 1500 job per door to fix correctly
• If car has original shocks, it may be time for a change
• Check tire dates on low mileage cars for tire rot, expiration dates - tires are usually good for 6 years
• Ignition system - Spark plug wires and ignition coils usually at end of life
• Minor but......rear fender guards - not costly but can be a PITA to change

Based on your opening, I would look for a CPO Cayman GTS, Cayman R or if you want something more costly a GT4........stay away from cabs because they can be problematic, especially on the older cars pre-2000.....good luck in your search)

mattg43

Thanks to all of your for the thoughts. To address a few things:

I dont want a liquid cooled 911, at least not right now.
This will not be a daily driver, I will be sticking with my current car, or another, more efficient one.
No cab's. Not really a fan of the car.

Ive got no issues with working on a car, especially one I *want* to work on, rather than *need* to work on for a commute. Ive been working on my stuff for close to 20 years, and helping my dad for years before that. Suspension (both solid axle and independent), axle boot and full replacements,, full axle removal for Jeeps, timing belts, accessories, pulling interiors, grossly involved electronics on modern cars, brakes, etc.

My plan up front was to prepare for wheels/tires/suspension as a matter of preferences and need - Outside of that, things like CV boots/axle play that would require replacement and the standard oil seeping/leaks should be covered by inspection and PPI, correct?

I am good with seals/gaskets around the car, and I will dig into the steering rack mentioned a couple of times as well.

AC - I am figuring that is on par for a 20 year old car, but hopefully it will work when purchased. It cannot be worse than the non-working AC in my first car, a 1980 300TD (T for touring, not turbo diesel), or the "working" AC in the 76 530i a couple years later...

I just checked a few sites on ignition system, and even with a new set of wires and plugs, it is still under half the cost of the last set of coils and plugs I changed...

In short, I think I am reasonably prepared for standard "older car" stuff, I believe I can handle most maintenance items, I just want to make sure that things like the valves or a top end are not going to end up being a recurring problem that needs addressed every other year.

Mike - thanks for the link on the story, ill check that out between calls and work.

I hope to one day have a much larger "fleet", which will be heavily German weighted - but for now I am going to go a bit slower, keep the daily and the Jeep. Maybe if I do decide to sell the Miata I will have a reason to fill the parking spot with another 911 or a Cayman.

The Cayman is really on the list because I intended it to be the first Porsche - my plan (decided years ago) was for the next few steps to be an E46 M3 or S54 powered Clown shoe, then decide between a C6 z06 (and later the C7 Grandsport was included) or getting a Cayman S. Aircooled 911 was always on the list as a future step, though flirting with a 996 TT pops up every once in a while. Just some things in life slowed down the progression a few years ago on the medical front, and now positive things happened in a progression that allow me to skip the steps (coupled with the massive drop in reasonable condition/low mileage E46s without sub frame problems) have me looking at the choice about 2 years earlier than I planned. I just really dig the car.

Again, thank you all for the insight and thoughts on both sides of the coin. Avoiding the typical "just get the XXX" and getting the details really helps!