Handling on 993 C4
03-15-2002, 11:54 AM
#31
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[quote]Originally posted by maurice97C2S:
<strong>My confusion arises from the drivers manual, which lists 3 setups for S models, standard, sports chassis, and sports chassis lowered, all have the same height of 1285mm (= Turbo, or normal Carrera with sports chassis, or sports chassis lowered). My option list does not have 030 or 033 in it, so I think it is a stock S, leaving me wondering what springs it has?? And measuring the A-Roll bars @ 25 and 22 mm didn't help, is there a specific point on the bar which is quoted as the thickness?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The owner's manual can often be confusing if not misleading. Mainly because Porsche covers the entire line in the same book. There is no question about the fact that both ROW Carrera S and 4S were delivered as standard with the M033 or with the optional M030. The following are the part numbers:
<strong>M033:</strong>
Front damper: 993.343.041/042.38 - blue color dot
Rear damper: 993.333.051/052.37 - green color
Front spring: 993.343.531.04 - blue color dot
Rear spring: 993.333.531.23 - pink color dot
<strong>M030:</strong>
Front damper: 993.343.041/042.35 - red color with yellow color dot
Rear damper: 993.333.051/052.35 - red color with yellow dot
Front spring: 965.343.531.01 - orange & green color dots
Rear spring: 993.333.531.11 - brown color dot
As to the anti-roll bars, they could be anything but here is what they "should" be:
ROW M033: 20 / 18 mm
ROW M030: 22 / 20 mm
The thickness of the bars should be consistent throughout the length but measure as close to the middle as possible. Clean the surface with a mild solvent and use an accurate micrometer.
<strong>My confusion arises from the drivers manual, which lists 3 setups for S models, standard, sports chassis, and sports chassis lowered, all have the same height of 1285mm (= Turbo, or normal Carrera with sports chassis, or sports chassis lowered). My option list does not have 030 or 033 in it, so I think it is a stock S, leaving me wondering what springs it has?? And measuring the A-Roll bars @ 25 and 22 mm didn't help, is there a specific point on the bar which is quoted as the thickness?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The owner's manual can often be confusing if not misleading. Mainly because Porsche covers the entire line in the same book. There is no question about the fact that both ROW Carrera S and 4S were delivered as standard with the M033 or with the optional M030. The following are the part numbers:
<strong>M033:</strong>
Front damper: 993.343.041/042.38 - blue color dot
Rear damper: 993.333.051/052.37 - green color
Front spring: 993.343.531.04 - blue color dot
Rear spring: 993.333.531.23 - pink color dot
<strong>M030:</strong>
Front damper: 993.343.041/042.35 - red color with yellow color dot
Rear damper: 993.333.051/052.35 - red color with yellow dot
Front spring: 965.343.531.01 - orange & green color dots
Rear spring: 993.333.531.11 - brown color dot
As to the anti-roll bars, they could be anything but here is what they "should" be:
ROW M033: 20 / 18 mm
ROW M030: 22 / 20 mm
The thickness of the bars should be consistent throughout the length but measure as close to the middle as possible. Clean the surface with a mild solvent and use an accurate micrometer.
03-15-2002, 02:55 PM
#32
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Thanks again Viken - guess I'll get in there with a cleaning rag, try to find some identifying marks.
Or just go for a drive and forget it!
Cheers, Maurice
Rennlist Member Number XXXXX (want to check the specials!)
Or just go for a drive and forget it!
Cheers, Maurice
Rennlist Member Number XXXXX (want to check the specials!)
03-15-2002, 03:01 PM
#33
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[quote]Originally posted by maurice97C2S:
<strong>Or just go for a drive and forget it!</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is the wisest thing to do.
<strong>Or just go for a drive and forget it!</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is the wisest thing to do.
03-15-2002, 03:56 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
I love my '95 993 Coupe, which I bought 2 years ago. Now, I join Rennlist and I start hearing about various imperfections -- wiring harness, suspension "anomaly" -- what a bummer. Is there any chance the suspension "revision" was made prior to the '96 model year (my car is a late '95, built in May 1995).
My car had 34,000 miles when I bought it, and has now just turned 45,000. It is comletely stock with 17" wheels and standard suspension (no LSD/ABD), and it has its original shocks. I have done 2 DE events so far, one at Pocono (South course) and one at Lime Rock. Both instructors said it handles great, and I agree. I have exprerienced some of the diagonal weight transfer effect through the right-hander at the bottom of the downhill at Lime Rock (approx. 85 - 90 mph if memory serves), where the surface is a little uneven. It never felt unstable however, and the instructor said this is completely normal for a stock car.
Recently (after my last track event), something strange happened, however. On an entrance ramp that turned out to have a decreasing radius, at roughly 45 - 50 mph in second gear, the tail started to go -- big time oversteer. The surface was not bumpy. My throttle foot was steady -- I had not lifted. Although I was going quickly for that curve, I did not think I was at or over the limit, and I had certainly experienced more lateral g in the car many times before (and since). The breakaway was pretty gentle at first, and I didn't initially think it would be hard to catch, but as I started to unwind steering lock, the slide started to quickly get worse. Various horrible thoughts went through my head in a tiny fraction of a second, but one quick stab of opposite lock immediately cured the oversteer. There was no counter slide, no "tank-slapping" motion. Throughout the slide, I kept a steady throttle, neither lifting nor accelerating. The temp was about 50 degrees, and the road was dry (concrete surface). The tire pressures were correct. The P-Zeros were less than half-worn in front, but the rears were almost down to the wear bars.
Humbled, and bit confused, I went back to the exit ramp a few days later and drove though it several times. I thought at first that perhaps there was something spilled on the road that initiated the slide, and I still think this is a possibility. The most striking discovery, however, was that at the point where the ramp's radius starts to decrease, it also becomes notably off-camber -- it becomes banked the wrong way. This may have been enough to lower the cornering limit of the car so that I suddenly had exceeded it.
I am about to have new S-03s installed, and I'll have an alignment done at the same time (by a Porsche dealer). I'm curious about whether the alignment is off, which may help explain this unsettling experience. Overall, my experience of the car over our two years together is overwhelmingly positive.
By the way, is it safe to assume that any Porsche dealer can do the kinematic alignment?
My car had 34,000 miles when I bought it, and has now just turned 45,000. It is comletely stock with 17" wheels and standard suspension (no LSD/ABD), and it has its original shocks. I have done 2 DE events so far, one at Pocono (South course) and one at Lime Rock. Both instructors said it handles great, and I agree. I have exprerienced some of the diagonal weight transfer effect through the right-hander at the bottom of the downhill at Lime Rock (approx. 85 - 90 mph if memory serves), where the surface is a little uneven. It never felt unstable however, and the instructor said this is completely normal for a stock car.
Recently (after my last track event), something strange happened, however. On an entrance ramp that turned out to have a decreasing radius, at roughly 45 - 50 mph in second gear, the tail started to go -- big time oversteer. The surface was not bumpy. My throttle foot was steady -- I had not lifted. Although I was going quickly for that curve, I did not think I was at or over the limit, and I had certainly experienced more lateral g in the car many times before (and since). The breakaway was pretty gentle at first, and I didn't initially think it would be hard to catch, but as I started to unwind steering lock, the slide started to quickly get worse. Various horrible thoughts went through my head in a tiny fraction of a second, but one quick stab of opposite lock immediately cured the oversteer. There was no counter slide, no "tank-slapping" motion. Throughout the slide, I kept a steady throttle, neither lifting nor accelerating. The temp was about 50 degrees, and the road was dry (concrete surface). The tire pressures were correct. The P-Zeros were less than half-worn in front, but the rears were almost down to the wear bars.
Humbled, and bit confused, I went back to the exit ramp a few days later and drove though it several times. I thought at first that perhaps there was something spilled on the road that initiated the slide, and I still think this is a possibility. The most striking discovery, however, was that at the point where the ramp's radius starts to decrease, it also becomes notably off-camber -- it becomes banked the wrong way. This may have been enough to lower the cornering limit of the car so that I suddenly had exceeded it.
I am about to have new S-03s installed, and I'll have an alignment done at the same time (by a Porsche dealer). I'm curious about whether the alignment is off, which may help explain this unsettling experience. Overall, my experience of the car over our two years together is overwhelmingly positive.
By the way, is it safe to assume that any Porsche dealer can do the kinematic alignment?
03-15-2002, 04:14 PM
#35
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Come to Toronto for a holiday and visit the dealer here. He just built a new, state of the art facility designed by Porsche with all the latest toys, including some sort of laser alignment system.
Keep in mind your real $$ go a long way in Canada.
Keep in mind your real $$ go a long way in Canada.
03-16-2002, 12:46 AM
#37
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Viken,
My car has M030 option (on the car, sticker, in the owner's manual...) yet the shocks & springs all are black..?
I'm gonna check the numbers but I though maybe you know something more... <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />
My car has M030 option (on the car, sticker, in the owner's manual...) yet the shocks & springs all are black..?
I'm gonna check the numbers but I though maybe you know something more... <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />
03-16-2002, 01:49 PM
#39
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"the yawing type of movement" Is it possible that what you are describing is the play in the rubber bushes in the rear suspension -particularly if you are new to 993s. I know that some tuners (particularly when upping the power) replace them with metal to take out all the play and apparently makes the rear much more positive. I have harder GT2 bushes in the rear of my 993tt which I feel is a better compromise if you use the car a lot on the roads as it keeps the noise/vibration out.
03-16-2002, 04:51 PM
#40
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Hi Maurice,
I learnt from local dealer some time back that M030 spec was std for UK "S" models, also evident when you see them parked side-by-side with std 993, the 20mm lowering at the back is easy to spot. Did come across confirmation in other sources, e.g. Motor Sport's '97 road test of Carrera S mentioned "Shorter, stiffer springs lower the suspension by 10mm at the front and twice that at the back".
I learnt from local dealer some time back that M030 spec was std for UK "S" models, also evident when you see them parked side-by-side with std 993, the 20mm lowering at the back is easy to spot. Did come across confirmation in other sources, e.g. Motor Sport's '97 road test of Carrera S mentioned "Shorter, stiffer springs lower the suspension by 10mm at the front and twice that at the back".
03-17-2002, 05:19 AM
#41
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[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>My car has M030 option (on the car, sticker, in the owner's manual...) yet the shocks & springs all are black..?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The above specifications are for the Monroe shocks which were used after MY '95. Before that, Porsche used Boge shocks which, some say thay are green and others say the are black.
<strong>My car has M030 option (on the car, sticker, in the owner's manual...) yet the shocks & springs all are black..?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The above specifications are for the Monroe shocks which were used after MY '95. Before that, Porsche used Boge shocks which, some say thay are green and others say the are black.
03-17-2002, 05:27 AM
#42
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[quote]Originally posted by JohnM:
<strong>I learnt from local dealer some time back that M030 spec was std for UK "S" models, also evident when you see them parked side-by-side with std 993, the 20mm lowering at the back is easy to spot. Did come across confirmation in other sources, e.g. Motor Sport's '97 road test of Carrera S mentioned "Shorter, stiffer springs lower the suspension by 10mm at the front and twice that at the back".</strong><hr></blockquote>
John,
The standard M033 suspension on the "S" models was also lowered just like the M030. Visually, cars equipped with either were the same. The description you quoted above is that of the M033 suspension which was labelled as "lowered" suspension but not "sport."
<strong>I learnt from local dealer some time back that M030 spec was std for UK "S" models, also evident when you see them parked side-by-side with std 993, the 20mm lowering at the back is easy to spot. Did come across confirmation in other sources, e.g. Motor Sport's '97 road test of Carrera S mentioned "Shorter, stiffer springs lower the suspension by 10mm at the front and twice that at the back".</strong><hr></blockquote>
John,
The standard M033 suspension on the "S" models was also lowered just like the M030. Visually, cars equipped with either were the same. The description you quoted above is that of the M033 suspension which was labelled as "lowered" suspension but not "sport."
03-17-2002, 04:25 PM
#44
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[quote]Originally posted by JohnM:
<strong>Hi Maurice,
UK-spec "S" model 993's have the M030 suspension.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, JohnM, I have just spent an hour or so out there in the garage, my car is UK spec, but my anti-roll bars, when the Waxoyl is removed, measure 21mm front, 18mm rear, there are green Monroes all round, all springs are black, and I found blue spots on the front springs. So I think we could say conclusively it is M033, not M030.
If you're upset, spare a thought for me - I was hoping to have the RoW M030 already, replace the shocks with Bilsteins, spend the change on aero whatever (recommendations welcome!). Now I will feel compelled to do PSS9 and RS sways (how about a group purchase from Gert ??) and let the aeros wait longer. Funny, I think the M033 is pretty good at Euro spec - seems to compare well to where the US people end up for ride heights, for example, and is quite stiff - or else my shocks are semi seized!
Yours in sorrow, cheers, Maurice.
RennList Member Number Unknown Still!
<strong>Hi Maurice,
UK-spec "S" model 993's have the M030 suspension.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, JohnM, I have just spent an hour or so out there in the garage, my car is UK spec, but my anti-roll bars, when the Waxoyl is removed, measure 21mm front, 18mm rear, there are green Monroes all round, all springs are black, and I found blue spots on the front springs. So I think we could say conclusively it is M033, not M030.
If you're upset, spare a thought for me - I was hoping to have the RoW M030 already, replace the shocks with Bilsteins, spend the change on aero whatever (recommendations welcome!). Now I will feel compelled to do PSS9 and RS sways (how about a group purchase from Gert ??) and let the aeros wait longer. Funny, I think the M033 is pretty good at Euro spec - seems to compare well to where the US people end up for ride heights, for example, and is quite stiff - or else my shocks are semi seized!
Yours in sorrow, cheers, Maurice.
RennList Member Number Unknown Still!
03-18-2002, 09:46 AM
#45
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Hi Maurice,
I'm not upset, always good to get some education
My 993 C4 had the std suspension, which I ditched in favour of PSS-9 last year (August), was a big improvement. Currently has stock anti-roll bars, but will be having RS bars put on it in a week or two (parts are ready, just need to find time for the fitment) as car still rolls too much for my liking.
I'm not upset, always good to get some education
My 993 C4 had the std suspension, which I ditched in favour of PSS-9 last year (August), was a big improvement. Currently has stock anti-roll bars, but will be having RS bars put on it in a week or two (parts are ready, just need to find time for the fitment) as car still rolls too much for my liking.