Handling on 993 C4
03-13-2002, 05:58 PM
#16
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Brian,
The factory shocks DO wear out rather quickly. However, many people may not notice this because the wear is somewhat progressive. I knew my shocks were starting to wear mainly because I go back to the track and can tell when the car gets unsettled in turns as a result. In my case, somewhere between 15K and 20K miles was when I started feeling them go and the ride became unbearable shortly after that. If people drive their cars mostly on the streets, they may get a bit more mileage out of them. But, I would not expect the stock Monroe’s to last as much as a good aftermarket shock under any driving condition.
The factory shocks DO wear out rather quickly. However, many people may not notice this because the wear is somewhat progressive. I knew my shocks were starting to wear mainly because I go back to the track and can tell when the car gets unsettled in turns as a result. In my case, somewhere between 15K and 20K miles was when I started feeling them go and the ride became unbearable shortly after that. If people drive their cars mostly on the streets, they may get a bit more mileage out of them. But, I would not expect the stock Monroe’s to last as much as a good aftermarket shock under any driving condition.
03-13-2002, 06:24 PM
#17
Viken,
It is funny you bring up the progressive wear issue because I was thinking that and almost mentioned it but I had no hard evidence or enough experience with the factory shocks (except for completely wornout ones). I think worn shocks are very common in our cars with alot of people not realizing they have them until they get the unbearable state.
It is funny you bring up the progressive wear issue because I was thinking that and almost mentioned it but I had no hard evidence or enough experience with the factory shocks (except for completely wornout ones). I think worn shocks are very common in our cars with alot of people not realizing they have them until they get the unbearable state.
03-13-2002, 06:31 PM
#18
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Okay, this thread begs the question:
What is the most scientific (ie. no seat-of-the-pants guestimates) way to tell if the shocks are worn out. What could one do to determine if new shocks are necessary. What do people do on other cars ??
I've gotta confess, although I'm a bit embarassed, I don't have an answer here.
sean
What is the most scientific (ie. no seat-of-the-pants guestimates) way to tell if the shocks are worn out. What could one do to determine if new shocks are necessary. What do people do on other cars ??
I've gotta confess, although I'm a bit embarassed, I don't have an answer here.
sean
03-13-2002, 07:18 PM
#19
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[quote]Originally posted by Sean Spicer:
<strong>Okay, this thread begs the question:
What is the most scientific (ie. no seat-of-the-pants guestimates) way to tell if the shocks are worn out. What could one do to determine if new shocks are necessary. What do people do on other cars ??
I've gotta confess, although I'm a bit embarassed, I don't have an answer here.
sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Sean:
First, I will tell that there is no way to truly measure how much wear your shocks have without putting them on a shock dyno and compare that data with a new set. Porsche doesn't make any shock specs available as this is proprietary information. One would need to have brand new ones handy to dyno those, as well. The old "bounce" test really tells you very little, if anything.
Is this worth the effort & expense?, likely not,.....
Viken really offers some pearls of wisdom. Shock wear, like so many other things on the car, occurs over time and the process is rather insideous. One never truly perceives any problem until its really bad or one replaces them proactively.
Just bear in mind that there is a quantum leap between an OEM grade shock (damper) and a high-quality aftermarket ones like Bilstein and H&R. These carry a warranty FAR in excess of the OEM Monroes.
JRZ, Moton, and Ohlin's are in a category of their own as these are racing dampers and were intended to be looked at and rebuilt from time to time.
Although there are always exceptions to anything,....I've never seen any OEM Monroe or Boge last beyond 40K miles. I've found them to be pretty worn out and this becomes especially noticeable after new Bilstein (HD) ones are installed.
<strong>Okay, this thread begs the question:
What is the most scientific (ie. no seat-of-the-pants guestimates) way to tell if the shocks are worn out. What could one do to determine if new shocks are necessary. What do people do on other cars ??
I've gotta confess, although I'm a bit embarassed, I don't have an answer here.
sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Sean:
First, I will tell that there is no way to truly measure how much wear your shocks have without putting them on a shock dyno and compare that data with a new set. Porsche doesn't make any shock specs available as this is proprietary information. One would need to have brand new ones handy to dyno those, as well. The old "bounce" test really tells you very little, if anything.
Is this worth the effort & expense?, likely not,.....
Viken really offers some pearls of wisdom. Shock wear, like so many other things on the car, occurs over time and the process is rather insideous. One never truly perceives any problem until its really bad or one replaces them proactively.
Just bear in mind that there is a quantum leap between an OEM grade shock (damper) and a high-quality aftermarket ones like Bilstein and H&R. These carry a warranty FAR in excess of the OEM Monroes.
JRZ, Moton, and Ohlin's are in a category of their own as these are racing dampers and were intended to be looked at and rebuilt from time to time.
Although there are always exceptions to anything,....I've never seen any OEM Monroe or Boge last beyond 40K miles. I've found them to be pretty worn out and this becomes especially noticeable after new Bilstein (HD) ones are installed.
03-13-2002, 09:25 PM
#20
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[quote]Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems:
<strong>
First, I will tell that there is no way to truly measure how much wear your shocks have without putting them on a shock dyno and compare that data with a new set.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a finely tuned, and regularly calibrated shock dyno in my butt. Give me thirty seconds in the car on the track, and I can tell you if your shocks are worn. Give me ten laps, and I can probably tell you if one (or more) is broke (and the others are OK). My stock shocks were worn appreciably @ 10k miles. I had the RoW M030 springs/shocks/sways installed, and they were appreciably worn @ ~19k miles. The rate at which a shock wears depends largely on the roughness of the roads (and/or tracks) on which you drive, and probably most importantly how hard you drive.
As an instructor, I get to drive in lots of 993's all the time at the track, and have never, ever been in a 993 with more than 30k miles that did not have unacceptably worn shocks--unacceptable to me, at least. Maybe that's because I'm overly sensitive, what with this shock dyno in my butt.
<strong>
First, I will tell that there is no way to truly measure how much wear your shocks have without putting them on a shock dyno and compare that data with a new set.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a finely tuned, and regularly calibrated shock dyno in my butt. Give me thirty seconds in the car on the track, and I can tell you if your shocks are worn. Give me ten laps, and I can probably tell you if one (or more) is broke (and the others are OK). My stock shocks were worn appreciably @ 10k miles. I had the RoW M030 springs/shocks/sways installed, and they were appreciably worn @ ~19k miles. The rate at which a shock wears depends largely on the roughness of the roads (and/or tracks) on which you drive, and probably most importantly how hard you drive.
As an instructor, I get to drive in lots of 993's all the time at the track, and have never, ever been in a 993 with more than 30k miles that did not have unacceptably worn shocks--unacceptable to me, at least. Maybe that's because I'm overly sensitive, what with this shock dyno in my butt.
03-13-2002, 09:29 PM
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Steve,
I know of a few up here and one in Roanoke. I will email you the info tomorrow.
All,
I was going to suggest the shock dyno as the only way to tell when shocks are worn. I believe that most everyday drivers (the minority here on the board) will not be able to tell when their shocks are going away with normal street driving. Of course if Viken and Steve W. say they don't last more than 40k, then I believe it. Of course my special long lasting 030 shocks are better than the ones they mention.
I guess until I change them I will keep myself convinced that they are fine. 
I do know that worn shocks or not, my car does not exhibit any of the characteristics mentioned in the original post, or any of the previous suspension posts, even at the track where I am pretty fast and drive pretty hard. Body Roll -- now that's a different story. Has to be the alingment.
YMMV!
E. J.
I know of a few up here and one in Roanoke. I will email you the info tomorrow.
All,
I was going to suggest the shock dyno as the only way to tell when shocks are worn. I believe that most everyday drivers (the minority here on the board) will not be able to tell when their shocks are going away with normal street driving. Of course if Viken and Steve W. say they don't last more than 40k, then I believe it. Of course my special long lasting 030 shocks are better than the ones they mention.
I guess until I change them I will keep myself convinced that they are fine. I do know that worn shocks or not, my car does not exhibit any of the characteristics mentioned in the original post, or any of the previous suspension posts, even at the track where I am pretty fast and drive pretty hard. Body Roll -- now that's a different story.
Has to be the alingment.YMMV!
E. J.
03-13-2002, 09:31 PM
#22
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[quote]Originally posted by Silver Bullet:
<strong>
*ouch*
that must really hurt! </strong><hr></blockquote>
So, you can understand why I'm so sensitive.
<strong>
*ouch*
that must really hurt! </strong><hr></blockquote>So, you can understand why I'm so sensitive.
03-14-2002, 10:14 AM
#23
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Just info...found on the web...
Question: How can I tell what shocks are on my 993?
Answer: The 993, from '94-early 96, was equipped with Boge shocks that are all black in color. The only way to know what type Boge installed would be to know if your car has the sport chassis (M030) which will be on the option sticker under the front hood. Some time in '96, Porsche switched to Monroe shocks. The Turbos and C4's have red Monroes (early Turbos and C4's still have black Boge's). The European (Row) Cars with M030 will have the red shocks, however, the U.S. are green in color. The front shocks on the Turbo and C4's are the same as the Row cars but have a different rear shock for the shorter spring.
sean
Question: How can I tell what shocks are on my 993?
Answer: The 993, from '94-early 96, was equipped with Boge shocks that are all black in color. The only way to know what type Boge installed would be to know if your car has the sport chassis (M030) which will be on the option sticker under the front hood. Some time in '96, Porsche switched to Monroe shocks. The Turbos and C4's have red Monroes (early Turbos and C4's still have black Boge's). The European (Row) Cars with M030 will have the red shocks, however, the U.S. are green in color. The front shocks on the Turbo and C4's are the same as the Row cars but have a different rear shock for the shorter spring.
sean
03-14-2002, 05:48 PM
#24
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Sean, do you have any info on springs/shocks for a standard Euro Carrera S? Sports chassis and lowered sports chassis are listed as options, but all are the same overall height, ref drivers manual.
Any pearls of wisdom? No way to tell from parts info.
Cheers, Maurice
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Any pearls of wisdom? No way to tell from parts info.
Cheers, Maurice
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03-14-2002, 05:57 PM
#25
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[quote]Originally posted by maurice97C2S:
<strong>Sean, do you have any info on springs/shocks for a standard Euro Carrera S? Sports chassis and lowered sports chassis are listed as options, but all are the same overall height, ref drivers manual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The ROW Carrera S and 4S came with a standard lowered suspension with the ROW M030 being optional. Both of these setups are approximately 30 mm lower than a US car (std. or M030).
<strong>Sean, do you have any info on springs/shocks for a standard Euro Carrera S? Sports chassis and lowered sports chassis are listed as options, but all are the same overall height, ref drivers manual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The ROW Carrera S and 4S came with a standard lowered suspension with the ROW M030 being optional. Both of these setups are approximately 30 mm lower than a US car (std. or M030).
03-14-2002, 06:41 PM
#26
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>>snip
The ROW Carrera S and 4S came with a standard lowered suspension with the ROW M030 being optional. Both of these setups are approximately 30 mm lower than a US car (std. or M030).
--------------------
Viken Bedrossian
>>
Thanks, Viken
I guess what I am trying to work out is what parts I have now - don't see any numbers around the bits.
For instance, in 97 parts I see springs 993 343 531 00 as Coupe/Cabrio, 504s as Targa. 965 343 531 01 as M030, with 504s presumably Targa variant. Then 993 343 531 04 (and 504) as M033 - finally 964 343 531 80 (and 504!) as RS.
Leaving me thinking I would have M033, although I don't see it listed anywhere (which could mean it is the standard S build).
Reason - I quite like my springs/ride height, but anticipate the shocks going soon, although they feel nicely stiff @ 18,300 miles. Also feel a-roll bars are quite OK. So perhaps I can save here with a Bilstein shock replacement, do an aero improvement instead.
Any ideas welcome - cheers, Maurice
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<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
The ROW Carrera S and 4S came with a standard lowered suspension with the ROW M030 being optional. Both of these setups are approximately 30 mm lower than a US car (std. or M030).
--------------------
Viken Bedrossian
>>
Thanks, Viken
I guess what I am trying to work out is what parts I have now - don't see any numbers around the bits.
For instance, in 97 parts I see springs 993 343 531 00 as Coupe/Cabrio, 504s as Targa. 965 343 531 01 as M030, with 504s presumably Targa variant. Then 993 343 531 04 (and 504) as M033 - finally 964 343 531 80 (and 504!) as RS.
Leaving me thinking I would have M033, although I don't see it listed anywhere (which could mean it is the standard S build).
Reason - I quite like my springs/ride height, but anticipate the shocks going soon, although they feel nicely stiff @ 18,300 miles. Also feel a-roll bars are quite OK. So perhaps I can save here with a Bilstein shock replacement, do an aero improvement instead.
Any ideas welcome - cheers, Maurice
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<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
03-14-2002, 07:20 PM
#27
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Maurice,
If your car was sold in the US, it wouldn't have the M033 chassis. On a US car, you could either have standard (M032) or sport (M030). Both of which are the same height.
If your car was sold in the US, it wouldn't have the M033 chassis. On a US car, you could either have standard (M032) or sport (M030). Both of which are the same height.
03-14-2002, 07:28 PM
#28
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Maurice,
Sorry, I just realized you are not in the US. As such, your car would either be equipped with M033 (lowered) or M030 (sport).
Sorry, I just realized you are not in the US. As such, your car would either be equipped with M033 (lowered) or M030 (sport).
03-15-2002, 07:02 AM
#29
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Thanks Viken
My confusion arises from the drivers manual, which lists 3 setups for S models, standard, sports chassis, and sports chassis lowered, all have the same height of 1285mm (= Turbo, or normal Carrera with sports chassis, or sports chassis lowered). My option list does not have 030 or 033 in it, so I think it is a stock S, leaving me wondering what springs it has?? And measuring the A-Roll bars @ 25 and 22 mm didn't help, is there a specific point on the bar which is quoted as the thickness?
At least this will allow me to procrastinate until the PSS9 debate is resolved! My car with the optional 18s rides firmer than another 993 with PSS9 on 17s I rode in, and undulating roads make me gape how well controlled it is at high speed - real vertical G-force!
Cheers, Maurice
My confusion arises from the drivers manual, which lists 3 setups for S models, standard, sports chassis, and sports chassis lowered, all have the same height of 1285mm (= Turbo, or normal Carrera with sports chassis, or sports chassis lowered). My option list does not have 030 or 033 in it, so I think it is a stock S, leaving me wondering what springs it has?? And measuring the A-Roll bars @ 25 and 22 mm didn't help, is there a specific point on the bar which is quoted as the thickness?
At least this will allow me to procrastinate until the PSS9 debate is resolved! My car with the optional 18s rides firmer than another 993 with PSS9 on 17s I rode in, and undulating roads make me gape how well controlled it is at high speed - real vertical G-force!
Cheers, Maurice
03-15-2002, 10:46 AM
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If you do want to get the work done this may help for where to go in the UK (apologies to those who have read this thread recently): <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002576" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=002576</a>
Could you provide some feedback on either this or that thread about the level of service you get etc. as I reckon UK based owners are having a hard time with main dealers and we should find out who to trust and who not to.
Thanks for the feedback.
Could you provide some feedback on either this or that thread about the level of service you get etc. as I reckon UK based owners are having a hard time with main dealers and we should find out who to trust and who not to.
Thanks for the feedback.