Mark in Baltimore

Hello, everyone,

Okay, I’ve encountered an issue with a ‘95 993 in Oklahoma City that I have ALMOST purchased. The PPI checked out wonderfully, leak down gave good results, I had a cashier’s check made out for the used car dealer, one-way flight from Baltimore to Oklahoma City but...the dealer, Bud Bauer of Bauer Cars says that he has a COPY of the title and not the original. He says that through an “embarrassing oversight on his part”, the local Oklahoma person he bought the car from still has the title in his possession. This previous owner is in Italy and his secretary cannot find the title.

Yes, this sounds weird and I told the dealer that I found it incredibly irregular that he did not have the original title in his possession, the act of ownership transfer and verification of said title being one of the cornerstones of this type of business. It raised obvious warning signs for me.

On the other hand, if you were a dealer trying to pull a scam, wouldn’t you have this title in hand ahead of time so it wouldn’t raise any issues for the buyer?? Maybe the guy IS on the up-and-up.

This dealer, to his credit, knowing what a goof/issue/screw-up this is, offered to have a title search done to prove that everything is as it should be. The dealer says that this car was bought in Oklahoma and stayed in Oklahoma, stating that it only had two owners. The weird thing is that Carfax shows only one title number for the vehicle history, seemingly indicating that there was only one owner as opposed to two. Hmmmm. On the surface this seems good for me, the potential buyer, to only have one other verified owner. But the dealer swears it has had two owners.

The dealer said that in Oklahoma the title number stays the same but a letter is added at the end of the numbers to indicate ownership change. Unfortunately, there are no letters added to any of the identical title numbers.

I have been told that this title may have been “washed”, whereby a car with a salvage history is titled as such but then sold to a state that does not require their titles to show a salvage issue. The car in question is then sold back to another state with a “clean” title and the potential buyer thinks he’s buying an okay car.

There is a strong possibility I am going to walk away from this one, but I wanted to share my concerns with everyone out there and get people’s opinions. The car’s PPI was done by a shop that seems honest and straight shooting, but the dealer only knew of this shop and the local Porsche dealership as avenues for inspection. So, despite the good PPI, maybe the dealer and the shop are in cahoots with each other.

Please, I welcome anyone’s thoughts and past experiences.

Thanks!

Mark

Phil

Mark,
I don't know a whole lot about Oklahoma(sp), but I have a fair amount of knowledge regarding titles.
1. dup titles are a fact of life. At my dealership the rule is...if the customer trading the car does not have orignal title, we do a application for dup. title. If they bring in the orginal...we discard the dup request.
2. Maybe I am way off base, but most folks, if they have title....loose it!.....Pinkslips(california lingo) just kind of get filed away, and forgoten about....or perhaps changes of address have taken place, and after last payment made....title is lost...NOt a big Problem....life just happens.\
3. Carfax....is a great program....however it, like anything else....is full of errors. "mistakes in.....garbage out"
4. Have a complete PPI done....COMPLETE...have trusted bodyshop examnine the car...bumper to bumper...if the car has had a problem....they will know! Most dealerships do a walk around, run there fingers over the car, try to look underneath, open the engine cover, open the doors etc........NOT ENOUGH!.....HAVE A VERY COMPENTENT BODY SHOP LOOK AT, EXAMINE THE CAR. IF there was, or is a problem.....it will be found at this point......
5. If in fact the car was only in OKlahoma(sp), and the car was in a wreck....there would be a police report.......run a DMV report/ Do not rely soley on the internet options..you should be able to track the car via the vin number.

Mark in Baltimore

Hi, Phil,

Thanks for your response! Does this thing smell fishy to you or just a normal course of events for dealing with cars? I have had this car PPI'd but, as I said in the post, the dealer and the PPI shop were familiar with each other, even though the shop SEEMED VERY level.

I liked your suggestion about running the VIN through the DMV. Will do tomorrow.

Anymore suggestions?

Thanks,

Mark

STLPCA

Mark
I agree w/Phil (& I also know nothing of OK law). A duplicate title is not itself cause for alarm, although it does justify a few cross checks. Having represented franchised car dealers for 20+ yrs, it's not unusual for a store to have a car w/o an orig title for a legitimate reason, e.g., the owner/lienholder lost/misplaced the orig, the title was lost or accidently destroyed by the dealer, etc.

Especially at the end of a slow month, car salespeople will do most anything to close a deal. A client once had a salesman who took a trade-in, the owner promised to bring back the title, took delivery of his new car & was killed in a crash on his way home from the dealership. It took a lawsuit to get a duplicate title for the trade-in issued a year later.

The dup title shouldn't blow your deal if all else checks out.

Don Magee

Is it a Duplicate Title that the dealer has or is it merely a copy of the original title? A duplicate title would not bother me that much for the reasons noted above. A copy of a title held by a third party, coupled with the uncertainty as to the # of prior owners would give me more concern. I, too, know nothing about Oklahoma law, but in many states when buying a used car you acquire nothing if you drive off w/o the title. The dealer's floor plan lender will have a security interest in the car in inventory that will trump a retail buyer, in some states. Given the buyers market out there, you may find an equally good car w/o these issues.

J-McDonald

It sounds to me like the dealer has a *photocopy* of the title document, rather than the original, embossed title document. The previous owner of the car (who is in Italy), presumably has the original title document in a vault somewhere.

Apparently, the dealer wants Mark to close the deal on the sale, without having the actual title document signed over to it. Since, in many states, legal ownership of a car passes to the new owner only upon the old owner signing the title over to the new owner, IMHO Mark would be crazy to accept the dealer's word that "he'll straighten it all out" once the previous owner of the car returns from Italy and gives the dealer the original title.

I would wait for the previous owner to return from Italy and give the dealer the original title document, before the closing the deal on the car.
While you're at it, I would ask to speak with the previous owner - this should clear up your questions about the car's history.

Good luck!

Mark in Baltimore

Rennlist is the best!

Thanks, everyone, for all of your help. It appears that all is well with the title issue. The dealer faxed over a notarized document and the title showing that he had it in his hands.

I checked with the Oklahoma DMV and they "brand" their titles, meaning if their is a flood or salvage issue, the title is marked as such. According to Carfax, AutoCheck and the Oklahoma DMV, this 993 was originally sold in Oklahoma and never left the state.

All seems good and I will go through with the deal.

Rennlist has been instrumental in quelling my anxiety of buying a $35,000+ vehicle over the phone!

Mark