Motul

Thanks for the support, Steve. Your endorsement of Motul is much appreciated. Drop us a line anytime if you need anything- Nick

Motul

As for the 4100 15W50, it is an API SL product and will have various advantages vs now obsolete API profiles (SG/SH etc) as there are much more stringent requirements in regards to improved oxidation resistance, improved deposit protection, better wear protection, and better low-temperature performance over the life of the oil. This will come in the form of more advanced additive technology to meet the API SL specification. Keep in mind, this was before the introduction and major focus of the API of energy conserving oils that have lower ash (ZDDP) requirements so it really is the best of all worlds when it comes to cars built in the late 90's= high amounts of ZDDP with better additive and base oil technology.

I know we still owe you a formal answer from us on the ZDDP specifics of this oil. In the meantime I wanted to take the time to do an analysis on already public information. There are some virgin oil analysis' stats floating around that sheds light on the 4100 15W50 and the Brad Penn 20W50 that may sway your guys' opinion or give some further insight:

4100 Power 15W50 vs Brad Penn 20W50:

TBN/total base number
Purpose: generally speaking, it's an oil's ability to fight contaminants and neutralize acids
Motul: 10.5
Brad Penn: 10.6

Viscosity Index
Purpose: an oil's ability to stay within grade as oil temperature change
Motul: 147
Brad Penn: 140

Zinc
Purpose: Anti Wear
Motul- 1155 ppm
Brad Penn- 1186 ppm

Phosphorous
Purpose: Anti Wear
Motul: 1020 ppm
Brad Penn: 1029 ppm

Moly:
Purpose: Friction modifier- lower coefficient of friction= more power, increased internal component efficiency
Motul: 93
Brad Penn: 2

Calcium:
Purpose: Detergent- controlling of deposits + more
Motul: 3309 ppm
Brad Penn: 1330 ppm

*references:
Brad Penn 20W50:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...-50_(green_Oil)
http://www.amref.com/Media/Files/bp_...HP_Oils_PB.pdf

Motul 4100 15W50:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...00_Power_15W50
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...pdf?1492017714

Based on the information above and knowing the popularity of the Brad Penn in the Porsche community, the 4100 is more than suitable for a 993 application. Similar anti wear numbers to start so no major difference in regards to that part of the formulations. The 2 major take away's from this is the Moly levels and Calcium levels. The nice dose of moly will lessen the internal friction of the engine (more power, better fuel economy) and therefore will decrease wear levels and engine temperatures while the increased calcium levels will provide additional cleaning power. Having a slightly higher viscosity index will also provide more consistent viscosity at varying temperatures.- Nick

Motul

Hello,
That is a mixed answer but in short there is no difference. The 4100 Power 15W50 used to be 6100 Synergie 15W50 and was part of the same line with the 6100 Synergie 10W40. The 6100 Synergie 10W40 still exists today.

There was some confusion with consumers and shops since the names were the same and the grades were different. We changed the name only to differentiate the 2 viscosities (10W40 vs 15W50), the formulation was unchanged. Hope that helps. - Nick

Motul

Thanks for the shout out! I would recommend going to the 300V Competition 15W50- the automotive version of the product you have here. Mainly due to way more friction modifier (moly) being in the auto version vs the motorcycle. We do this because of the wet clutch compatibility of the motorcycle product. Not enough friction= clutch slippage. Obviously in a auto application this isn't the case so we can get by using a more exotic formulation. Certainly nothing wrong with using this product either as you'll still get the advantages of an ester based grp 5 synthetic -Nick

Motul

No, thank you! That's quite the garage We need to send Steve a gift at this point. -Nick

Motul

Hello,
There is no virgin oil analysis available for the Molygen 15W50 that I can find. There is one floating around for the 5W40. It's likely the additive formulations are similar since they are within the same line- maybe that is too presumptuous.

However, looking at the Molygen 15W50 technical data sheet, there is one take away. NOACK volatility results. Based on public information, our NOACK for the 4100 Power is at 7.9% and the Molygen is at 12%. This is important as this is a virgin oil test and can tell you what the characteristics of an oil are before it goes in the sump. The NOACK test is an industry standard test that essentially measures for oil evaporation. The higher the number, in theory, the higher the mass loss (evaporation) per hour. This can be attributed to the type of base oils chosen. High NOACK can contribute to not only oil consumption and less additive retention but oil thickening as well.

With the info I've given, our ZDDP and moly numbers look to be a right fit for the air cooled Porsches, that and along with a low volatility number, hopefully it will be an easier decision for you all -Nick

LQM 15W50 Data: https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000...50-14.0-en.pdf
Motul 15W50 Data: https://www.germanautohaustn.com/oil-analysis

Motul

Totally understood and thank you for acknowledging the great conversations we're having here on Rennlist.

I provided the public VOA data until I could speak with HQ in Europe to give a level of transparency. I've been going back and forth with HQ on this (and have before), what we don't want is to get locked in to a "ZDDP is higher therefore better" debate at the end of the day. If that is the sole/main focus then the next oil company can just add more additive for the sake adding more additive and then perceived as a better product without the user considering the whole formulation. This is what has happened at all levels of the business and we need to change the conversation. That is a large reason why we are here on Rennlist today. We're addressing things beyond ZDDP that have way more of an impact on your car's performance and longevity as well as highlighting the unique nature of our products- low volatility, additive retention, friction modifiers, the ester advantages etc.

What I hope this has started in terms of understanding oil formulation, is proving that ZDDP has little value or meaning if you don't consider the oil formulation as a whole. It's really quite impossible to assume that higher ZDDP automatically provides better protection.

As an example:

Oil A:
- 1200 ppm of Z and P
- Low quality base oil= high shear rate
- High volatility rate= 13%,
Conclusion: The ZDDP will go right out the tailpipe and you have oil that has fallen out of viscosity with less ZDDP vs oil B and higher oil consumption

Oil B:
- 950 ppm of Z and P
- Higher quality base oil= excellent shear strength
- Low volatility= 8%
Conclusion: Will have much better-consistent performance over the entire drain interval in terms of additive retention, viscosity retention and in return better engine protection regardless of the ZDDP you started out with (within reason).

This all being said, we won't post internal formulation data unless it's been approved, even if it is public already. What I can do is confirm/deny existing data available, give you a higher level of insight into our formulations and will be happy to dissect any VOA or UOA you throw my way.

I know it's not what everyone wants to hear but it's the best I can do today. -Nick

Motul

Hello there,
I did a similar virgin oil analysis comparison for you for the DT50 vs 4100 as I did for the Brad Penn vs 4100 . The results look pretty convincing on paper for the 4100, the VOA is always a good place to start. Thanks for giving us a shot:

4100 Power 15W50 vs DT50 15W50:

TBN/total base number
Purpose: generally speaking, it's an oil's ability to fight contaminants and neutralize acids
Motul: 10.5
DT50: 9.1

Viscosity Index
Purpose: an oil's ability to stay within grade as oil temperatures change
Motul: 147
DT50: NA

Zinc
Purpose: Anti Wear
Motul- 1155 ppm
DT50: 1102 ppm

Phosphorous
Purpose: Anti Wear
Motul: 1020 ppm
DT50: 980 ppm

Moly:
Purpose: Friction modifier- lower coefficient of friction= more power, increased internal component efficiency
Motul: 93 ppm
DT50: 0 ppm

Calcium:
Purpose: Detergent- controlling of deposits + more
Motul: 3309 ppm
DT50: 2620 ppm

Boron:
Purpose: Anti wear, corrosion inhibitor, anti-oxidant
Motul: 47 ppm
DT50: 0 ppm

Viscosity @ 100 C/212F:
Purpose: Oil viscosity at operating temperature
Motul: 19.7 cSt- a 50 grade viscosity
DT50: 15.7 cSt- a 40 grade viscosity

*references:
DT50: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...IVEN_DT50_15W5
4100 15W50: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...00_Power_15W50
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...pdf?1492017714

Again, based on the information above and knowing the popularity of the DT50 in the Porsche community, the 4100 is more than suitable for your air-cooled application as well. Similar anti wear numbers to start, the 4100 does have a nice extra dose of phosphorous for possible added protection. Like the Brad Penn, the 2 major take away's from the 4100 vs DT50 is the Moly levels, Calcium but also boron and viscosity levels. The nice dose of moly will lessen the internal friction of the engine (more power, better fuel economy) and therefore will decrease wear levels and engine temperatures while the increased calcium levels will provide additional cleaning power. The Boron figures are pretty eye opening as well with the DT50 showing no Boron while the 4100 has 2x the amount vs the average sample as you'll see. Boron will give you additional anti wear features while also acting like an anti-oxidant fighter. Another thing to note is the low viscosity of the DT50 at operating temperature- at that number it is technically a 40 grade oil so there could be potential for higher engine wear depending on the condition of the engine etc. There are no viscosity index figures available for the DT50 so I can't help with that.- Nick