beto

It happened in 2 to 3 seconds. The kids were home so I took the car out of storage and went to gas it up. We have a place in Door county Wi on Lake Michigan near a very curvey and shaded road. I was doing at most 35mph the back end came around I corrected never hit the brakes and 50 yards at most later into a tree hitting the drivers headlight. Both air bags went off and my niece and I walked away with no damage thank God. I think it is totaled and will know next week what the insurance guys say. Here's my question now that I have been humbled and humiliated but still willing to get back on the saddle: We are moving to Durango Co this year and with the road conditions more challenging than here, I would like to know if a limited slip option for a Targa should be a must for me I really am married to the Targa idea. The 2 back tires were entirely different treads which the previous owner did as a quick fix which I didn't notice til a month after the purchase, plus the road was wet and 31 degrees with a stiff wind to boot. I didn't get a ticket which soften the bruised pride somewhat but I'm really questioning weather I should be relagated to a C4 or nothing. Help

ca993twin

Beto,

I sure am sorry to hear about your accident. If the problem was with ice on the road, I would think that winter (studded?) tires are the best solution, with AWD a distant second. But I'm a California boy, so I've never had to deal with that issue.

Robert Henriksen

Well, in nasty conditions like that I can have some sympathy for a snap oversteer. If you're not excited about four wheel drive (since you'd have to give up the targa), have you consider (gasp) a water-pumper with PSM?

graham_mitchell

Sorry to hear about the accident but glad you survived unscathed to fight another day

993Maineiac

Beto,

Sorry about the car, but glad that you were both safe. As for Durango and a C2 vs C4-it depends on the use of the car. I lived in Colorado and am envious of your move-Durango is a great place to live. Even with the so called SUV suspension our cars are not made for deep snow. Going south or west you'll have no problems, north or east take judgement of road conditions. I assume the 993 is not a daily driver so the C2 or C4 should not be an issue-you like the Targa so go for it!

It does sound like quite a few circumstances came together at the wrong time for you with the tree hugging. If you are going to use the car in the winter in Colorado, get good snow tires-great discussion of this on the Tire Rack site. Of course if it is really bad the chain laws will be in effect so you wouldm't (IMHO) want them on a Porsche. Have a good "winter ride" and don't worry.

Al

User 4621

Hi Beto,

Thanks goodness you guys are OK. Based on the conditions you describe it's possible you hit a patch of ice, in which case there was probably little you could have done.

However, one good thing to come out of this is your disclosure about the different rear tires. Every so often an argument flares up here about quality, matching tires, and whether it's important at street speeds. Your experience is a perfect example of how and why situations occur even at low speeds that require the full dynamic capabilities of our cars.

Regarding your questions, I doubt that an LSD would have made any difference. If you plan on driving on wet roads, then AWD will have a significant positive effect and I would consider a C4. Doubtful that it would have helped if you hit ice though.

Best of luck getting it back on the road or replaced with an even better one.

beto

Thanks for the imput! I think this site is the ultimate and to be honest if I didn't have access to all this info I'd be reluctant to jump back in. It will take a while as I really want to hold out for a Targa again with Arena red with cashmere or that bright blue not sure what it is called. So keep your eyes peeled and let me thanks Beto

STLPCA

With all due respect, LSD, AWD, etc. are not the problem. It's the "nut behind the wheel." Fortunately, no one was injured or killed. Humbled & humiliated, indeed.

How could you not notice "entirely different (rear) treads" when you purchased the car, much less for a month thereafter? Ever check to see if there was enough tread depth? How about tire pressures? Obviously no concerns about mismatched tires. Any thought about icing at 31 deg on a shaded road by a lake? You said you never braked. I trust you mean in the turn & not a failure to brake into the tree. Did you lift in the turn? The back end doesn't just come around without some cause. That cause is almost always some form of driver error.

I'd suggest either a pro school or quality PCA or other club DE to better understand vehicle handling & your own abilities/limitations. This is not intended as a flame, but as hopefully constructive comments.

Stevarino

Beto:

'Sorry to hear about your accident, but don't beat yourself up over it. You can't change the laws of physics, man. You didn't stand a chance under those conditions once you hit the icy curves wearing high speed, hard compound summer tires. You needed squishy soft snow tires.

I grew up in Mpls., so am accustomed to winter driving. I always mounted snow tires on my cars in November (BMWs at the time). Even if you acquire a C4/C4S, I would think twice before taking it out under those conditions without proper winter tires; otherwise, you may be painting two 993 symbols on the door of its successor.

Happy motoring.

lexpilot

High performance tires like those used on our Porsches do not work even with chains ! Those nifty street race tires are just too wide and don't have enough siping. I just observed a wreck where the guy locked up his rear chained high perf tires and the wheel stopped rotating so that the tire was on the snow in between the chain links. His fronts had no chains so he had no directional control either. If you must drive your Pcar there is no better item than studded snow tires. Preferably go to a size that is narrower than your hwy tires. So if you have P255/40 then go to a P245/45 or even a P235/50. Better yet only drive your Pcar on the dry days in winter.

bet

Glad to hear no one was hurt.

The differing tread patterns aside, high performance summer tires are not ment to be driven in the winter. The rubber compounds were not designed to work well under these conditions. Add to the wrong tire compounds, road conditions that are at best just wet (but more likely icey in spots given the part of the country, air temperatures and shady ness) and curvey and you get an accident waiting to happen. LSD and/or an AWD feature would most likely not have helped at all (heck, PSM in the current generation 996 would probably not have helped). The right tires make a huge difference.

Zed.

Some lessons are learned with difficulty but glad you are both OK. That's the best you can make of this incident. Ive learned that cold temps, cold high performance tires and ANY road precipitation are a very dangerous combo and can bite you anytime. So sorry you lost your dream car. Take solice that they made alot of 993s so there's probably another out there for you somewhere. Im probably more fortunate in that mine doesnt exit the garage til Spring.

Chris W. - '96 Targa

Hi Beto,

Haven't been on the boards recently, and just saw your post. I'm sorry to hear of your accident, and I'm glad nobody was hurt. Fortunately, cars can be replaced.

If you're shopping for another Targa (or any p-car, for that matter), looking for one with LSD/ABD can't hurt. I don't see too many 31-degree days, but I do get a lot of wet weather down here in FL, and the LSD does make a difference. I've not driven a p-car without that option for a definite comparison, but I can tell when it's working.

I *can* still get the car to spin when I want to. But, as I'm sure you feel too, I prefer it be on my own terms.

Best of luck in finding the right replacement car.

-Chris

Ray Calvo

The 2 back tires were entirely different treads which the previous owner did as a quick fix [QUOTE]

Sorry to hear about this. Glad that you and your niece are OK.

This front-to-rear tire difference (along with the "nut behind the wheel" scenario) I feel is the major contributor. When I first needed rear tires on my '95 993, I purchased a set of BFG Comp T/A tires for the rear and kept the Yokohama A008 up front. When I first took a expressway exit ramp at a slightly aggressive speed, the car had way more oversteer than any 911 I have ever noted (includes old '76 911S and '84 Carrera Turbo Look). A bit of experimentation noted that the car was basically a terror. I bought a set of front BFG Comp T/As and problem was solved with identical tires front and rear. I never again ran different front and rear tires (got 80K miles on my 993 now).

Thought of ice is a possibility, but I would think you'd notice some understeer initially. Your sudden onset of oversteer I feel is most likely due to the different tires (I've driven my '95 993 in ice/snow scenarios with street tires and in heavy rain in practically treadless "R" compound tires and have never noted heavy oversteer. Also the case with new fronts and heavily worn rears - no major oversteer). Also, when the back end started coming around, what did you do? Take foot off the gas? BAD idea, unless rear end has come WAY around. You also have to be instantaneous with the countersteering. You were doing "only 35 MPH" - what was the posted speed for that corner?

Gotta go along with Dan 96C2 theories.

ed devinney

Glad to hear everyone was alright. The 993 is a very safe car, but the tree pretty much always wins:



As with your accident there were contributing factors in mine: temps below freezing, cold Pilot Sport tires, and asphalt known (to others, not me) to be slippery when cold, speed below the limit but higher than the posted advisory.

That said, I hit my tree because I couldn't drive the car properly, wrecking the car I'd dreamed of since I was 11. I figured I needed to improve the wetware before I got back in another 911 and picked up a 944 turbo and started DE in earnest. I'm feeling ready to look for another 993 now.

I agree with Ray & Dan. DE will teach you how to really drive, and will enforce a certain amount of mechanical discipline that might be helpful - importance of tires, tire pressure, etc. Additionally, DE and a period in insurance purgatory succeeded in slowing me down on the roads.

Good luck!