Lowering: Opinions on H+R springs/HD Bilstein shock setup
01-12-2003, 10:23 PM
#16
Drifting
I studied all the options long and hard as well and finally decided to pull the trigger and installed a PSS-9 with M030 sways over the Xmas holidays. I am totally satisfied with the decision not only with the aesthetics, but with the ride quality, too. I find the PSS-9, adjusted to it's softest setting to be somewhere in between stock and M030 as far as harshness on city streets. Just what I was looking for.
01-13-2003, 12:40 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
OK, all this has me even more confused as I am about to pull the trigger also! Are there any complaints with the complete ROW M030 setup, as opposed to the HD's with or without H&R springs? The reason I ask, is because I can get the true ROW setup cheaper than the HD setup. Bottom line is this,.Are the HD's better than the stock ROW stuff? And can you use the ROW setup (or any lowering setup) without changing the stock sway bars?
Thanks
Thanks
01-13-2003, 01:01 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
rattlsnak,
You can use the RoW setup (or any other) with the stock sway bars (20mm front/17mm rear, in the US) However, setting up the car like this is almost certainly going to yield severe understeer at the limit, not to mention more body roll than the suspension was designed to handle.
The Bilstein HD shocks are *much* better, longevity wise, than the stock or M030 monroes.
Porsche designs these components to work together for a balanced suspension setup. The stock setup is geared toward street drivers who want a nice ride. The sport suspension is a little bit stiffer for those who want a sportier feel. My recommendation is not to mix-and-match if you can avoid it. If you have to wait a few months to save for a better setup, do so. I waited over a year to save enough for the new parts I've just purchased. It's much cheaper to do it right the first time, than to be continually swaping pieces in search of a balanced setup.
Remember, you pay for what you get.
Hope that didn't sound to preachy
cheers,
sean
You can use the RoW setup (or any other) with the stock sway bars (20mm front/17mm rear, in the US) However, setting up the car like this is almost certainly going to yield severe understeer at the limit, not to mention more body roll than the suspension was designed to handle.
The Bilstein HD shocks are *much* better, longevity wise, than the stock or M030 monroes.
Porsche designs these components to work together for a balanced suspension setup. The stock setup is geared toward street drivers who want a nice ride. The sport suspension is a little bit stiffer for those who want a sportier feel. My recommendation is not to mix-and-match if you can avoid it. If you have to wait a few months to save for a better setup, do so. I waited over a year to save enough for the new parts I've just purchased. It's much cheaper to do it right the first time, than to be continually swaping pieces in search of a balanced setup.
Remember, you pay for what you get.
Hope that didn't sound to preachy
cheers,
sean
01-13-2003, 02:27 PM
#19
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BradB:
<strong>I studied all the options long and hard as well and finally decided to pull the trigger and installed a PSS-9 with M030 sways over the Xmas holidays.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Brad, I'm at that same point in my install where you were struggling & cussing -- the ride height/sway clearance on the rears. Did you measure your ride height per the service manual, to spots on the undercarriage? Mine are right at the midpoint between RS and ROW M030... and I can't make the rear sway work. The M030 droplinks are a) too long to route the sway above the toe arm, b) too short to send the swaybar below the toe arm, c) one bolt of the droplink is too short to expose enough threads to safely bolt it on. The Bilstein droplinks are better, but still a good 1/2" too long. To send the swaybar over the top of the toe arm, I have to swivel the droplink mount awefully far forward, to where a) it's only a millimter or two from the drive shaft, and b) the droplink is tilted forward away from vertical by a good 35-40 degrees.
I'm probably going to throw up my hands & take it down to Mike Callas, but am curious how yours wound up. I know you posted a picture of the arrangement you wound up with, and it looks like you managed to get the droplinks pretty close to vertical. I checked my ride height at the top of the rear wheel well, and it's about 25.25", which I think is what you posted.
I'm just mystified how the setup can be so different between different cars!
<strong>I studied all the options long and hard as well and finally decided to pull the trigger and installed a PSS-9 with M030 sways over the Xmas holidays.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Brad, I'm at that same point in my install where you were struggling & cussing -- the ride height/sway clearance on the rears. Did you measure your ride height per the service manual, to spots on the undercarriage? Mine are right at the midpoint between RS and ROW M030... and I can't make the rear sway work. The M030 droplinks are a) too long to route the sway above the toe arm, b) too short to send the swaybar below the toe arm, c) one bolt of the droplink is too short to expose enough threads to safely bolt it on. The Bilstein droplinks are better, but still a good 1/2" too long. To send the swaybar over the top of the toe arm, I have to swivel the droplink mount awefully far forward, to where a) it's only a millimter or two from the drive shaft, and b) the droplink is tilted forward away from vertical by a good 35-40 degrees.
I'm probably going to throw up my hands & take it down to Mike Callas, but am curious how yours wound up. I know you posted a picture of the arrangement you wound up with, and it looks like you managed to get the droplinks pretty close to vertical. I checked my ride height at the top of the rear wheel well, and it's about 25.25", which I think is what you posted.
I'm just mystified how the setup can be so different between different cars!
01-13-2003, 04:48 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Sean, and others, thanks for the replies. I understand not to mix and match. But other than longetivity, are the ROW setups as stiff as the HD's with H&R's? I read in this thread earlier about people who were unhappy with the H&R springs, so I want to go with the ROW springs, but wanted to use the M030 shocks as well to avoid all the fitment problems everybody seems to be having. Basically I want to go with the complete ROW M030 setup over the HD's and H&R's. Im guessing that should be a no brainer on the fitment, but are they as stiff? Even as far as the ps9's go, I dont feel i need that range of adjustability. What about RS setups? I guess I always lean to factory stuff. Thanks again,.
01-13-2003, 04:59 PM
#23
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I had the ROW M030 (springs/shocks/sways) and was very happy with them. Good performance, not TOO stiff, no hassle installation.
But the shocks were worn out after 30k miles.
Now, if you don't track the car you probably wouldn't consider them worn. They still worked just fine, even great, on the street; but on the track, pushing the car to its limit, was downright scary. So two years after installing them, I'm writing a big check to replace them w. Bilsteins. Yes, fitment is more of a hassle, but I know I won't need to do this again for a lot more than 2-3 years.
But the shocks were worn out after 30k miles.
Now, if you don't track the car you probably wouldn't consider them worn. They still worked just fine, even great, on the street; but on the track, pushing the car to its limit, was downright scary. So two years after installing them, I'm writing a big check to replace them w. Bilsteins. Yes, fitment is more of a hassle, but I know I won't need to do this again for a lot more than 2-3 years.
01-13-2003, 05:00 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
rattlsnak,
According to Bilstein when I contacted them last week, there is no difference in rebound rate between the HDs and the Monroe shocks found on M030 setups - the primary difference is in the overall shock design. There are no fitment problems either, asuming one is using the stock shock mounts. Some fitment problems come when one tries to lower the car, as the HDs were designed to be used as replacements for the US OEM sport shocks. Bilstein seems to be aware of the lowering problem, and Hergesheimer Motorsports has a working solution. The Bilstein shocks come with rear drop-links, the fronts can be reused.
The stiffness (or lack thereof) is related to the springs. The RoW M030 springs are stiffer (larger spring rate) than the H&R ones in Gert's kit.
Hope that helps!
sean
According to Bilstein when I contacted them last week, there is no difference in rebound rate between the HDs and the Monroe shocks found on M030 setups - the primary difference is in the overall shock design. There are no fitment problems either, asuming one is using the stock shock mounts. Some fitment problems come when one tries to lower the car, as the HDs were designed to be used as replacements for the US OEM sport shocks. Bilstein seems to be aware of the lowering problem, and Hergesheimer Motorsports has a working solution. The Bilstein shocks come with rear drop-links, the fronts can be reused.
The stiffness (or lack thereof) is related to the springs. The RoW M030 springs are stiffer (larger spring rate) than the H&R ones in Gert's kit.
Hope that helps!
sean
01-13-2003, 05:37 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
>>Some fitment problems come when one tries to lower the car, as the HDs were designed to be used as replacements for the US OEM sport shocks.<<
ok, so the when using the ROW M030 springs with the HD's is when the fitment problems occur. OK,.. I think I got it!
ok, so the when using the ROW M030 springs with the HD's is when the fitment problems occur. OK,.. I think I got it!
01-13-2003, 06:06 PM
#26
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by rattlsnak:
<strong>Even as far as the ps9's go, I dont feel i need that range of adjustability. What about RS setups? I guess I always lean to factory stuff. Thanks again,.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like I said previously I have the H&R COILOVER kit, not to be confused with the H&R and HD combo.
This system is PSS-9 like without the adjustability of the PSS-9.I did not need the adjustability either. I paired it with the M030 sways and IMO it was the best money ever spend! Stiffer than the M030 setup, closer to the RS spec, no fitment problems with sways or perches and lowers the car to RS spec if you wish without a problem. The shocks for this kit are made by bilstein but valved to H&R specs to precicely match the springs. The car is transformed on or off the track. Cornering is flat and the car is very balanced.
It really amazes me how this kit is never in someones options! It is an incredible upgrade if you dont mind the stiffness associated with an RS style upgrade and have track work in mind...
<strong>Even as far as the ps9's go, I dont feel i need that range of adjustability. What about RS setups? I guess I always lean to factory stuff. Thanks again,.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like I said previously I have the H&R COILOVER kit, not to be confused with the H&R and HD combo.
This system is PSS-9 like without the adjustability of the PSS-9.I did not need the adjustability either. I paired it with the M030 sways and IMO it was the best money ever spend! Stiffer than the M030 setup, closer to the RS spec, no fitment problems with sways or perches and lowers the car to RS spec if you wish without a problem. The shocks for this kit are made by bilstein but valved to H&R specs to precicely match the springs. The car is transformed on or off the track. Cornering is flat and the car is very balanced.
It really amazes me how this kit is never in someones options! It is an incredible upgrade if you dont mind the stiffness associated with an RS style upgrade and have track work in mind...
01-13-2003, 11:01 PM
#27
Drifting
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Robert Henriksen:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BradB:
<strong>I studied all the options long and hard as well and finally decided to pull the trigger and installed a PSS-9 with M030 sways over the Xmas holidays.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Brad, I'm at that same point in my install where you were struggling & cussing -- the ride height/sway clearance on the rears. Did you measure your ride height per the service manual, to spots on the undercarriage? Mine are right at the midpoint between RS and ROW M030... and I can't make the rear sway work. The M030 droplinks are a) too long to route the sway above the toe arm, b) too short to send the swaybar below the toe arm, c) one bolt of the droplink is too short to expose enough threads to safely bolt it on. The Bilstein droplinks are better, but still a good 1/2" too long. To send the swaybar over the top of the toe arm, I have to swivel the droplink mount awefully far forward, to where a) it's only a millimter or two from the drive shaft, and b) the droplink is tilted forward away from vertical by a good 35-40 degrees.
I'm probably going to throw up my hands & take it down to Mike Callas, but am curious how yours wound up. I know you posted a picture of the arrangement you wound up with, and it looks like you managed to get the droplinks pretty close to vertical. I checked my ride height at the top of the rear wheel well, and it's about 25.25", which I think is what you posted.
I'm just mystified how the setup can be so different between different cars! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not sure what to tell you. I set my height just a little higher than you at 25 3/8". I used the M030 links and have no clearance problems at rest or unweighted. (It's very close when unweighted.) It took me no less than five tries to get it right. I can take the suspension in and out in 20 minutes flat! You should have the link brackets somehere pretty close to this picture. I posted the exact measurement in a previous post.
<img src="http://fototime.com/889198CF4343353/standard.jpg" alt=" - " />
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BradB:
<strong>I studied all the options long and hard as well and finally decided to pull the trigger and installed a PSS-9 with M030 sways over the Xmas holidays.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Brad, I'm at that same point in my install where you were struggling & cussing -- the ride height/sway clearance on the rears. Did you measure your ride height per the service manual, to spots on the undercarriage? Mine are right at the midpoint between RS and ROW M030... and I can't make the rear sway work. The M030 droplinks are a) too long to route the sway above the toe arm, b) too short to send the swaybar below the toe arm, c) one bolt of the droplink is too short to expose enough threads to safely bolt it on. The Bilstein droplinks are better, but still a good 1/2" too long. To send the swaybar over the top of the toe arm, I have to swivel the droplink mount awefully far forward, to where a) it's only a millimter or two from the drive shaft, and b) the droplink is tilted forward away from vertical by a good 35-40 degrees.
I'm probably going to throw up my hands & take it down to Mike Callas, but am curious how yours wound up. I know you posted a picture of the arrangement you wound up with, and it looks like you managed to get the droplinks pretty close to vertical. I checked my ride height at the top of the rear wheel well, and it's about 25.25", which I think is what you posted.
I'm just mystified how the setup can be so different between different cars!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not sure what to tell you. I set my height just a little higher than you at 25 3/8". I used the M030 links and have no clearance problems at rest or unweighted. (It's very close when unweighted.) It took me no less than five tries to get it right. I can take the suspension in and out in 20 minutes flat! You should have the link brackets somehere pretty close to this picture. I posted the exact measurement in a previous post. <img src="http://fototime.com/889198CF4343353/standard.jpg" alt=" - " />
01-14-2003, 03:37 AM
#28
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Yet another punter wit the finger on the trigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
It's going to be factory ROW M030 with RS sways or one of Gert's kits. The reason for considering the kits at extra $ is the better Bilstein shocks.
Fitment problems mean M030 with HD's is out for me. The choice of kits is Gert's new "H&R with HD's" or full Pss-9's H&R's et al. Since it is a street only ride I think PSS-9's and the like are over the top though. I recently declined a used Motorsport set-up with monoballs for the same reason.
Sean, where/how did you get the info on the H&R springs in gert's kit? If it is really softer compared to ROW M030 that would be disappointing. I had high hopes this would be "the one". AFAIK Still no review of this new kit on the list.
Enjoy <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
Nol
It's going to be factory ROW M030 with RS sways or one of Gert's kits. The reason for considering the kits at extra $ is the better Bilstein shocks.
Fitment problems mean M030 with HD's is out for me. The choice of kits is Gert's new "H&R with HD's" or full Pss-9's H&R's et al. Since it is a street only ride I think PSS-9's and the like are over the top though. I recently declined a used Motorsport set-up with monoballs for the same reason.
Sean, where/how did you get the info on the H&R springs in gert's kit? If it is really softer compared to ROW M030 that would be disappointing. I had high hopes this would be "the one". AFAIK Still no review of this new kit on the list.
Enjoy <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
Nol
01-14-2003, 10:36 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
>>It really amazes me how this kit is never in someones options!<<
Interesting... I kinda skimmed right over these myself! Thanks Dan, now I have ANOTHER option!
Interesting... I kinda skimmed right over these myself! Thanks Dan, now I have ANOTHER option!
01-14-2003, 11:08 AM
#30
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by rattlsnak:
<strong>Even as far as the ps9's go, I dont feel i need that range of adjustability. What about RS setups? I guess I always lean to factory stuff. Thanks again,.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like I said previously I have the H&R COILOVER kit, not to be confused with the H&R and HD combo.
This system is PSS-9 like without the adjustability of the PSS-9.I did not need the adjustability either. I paired it with the M030 sways and IMO it was the best money ever spend! Stiffer than the M030 setup, closer to the RS spec, no fitment problems with sways or perches and lowers the car to RS spec if you wish without a problem. The shocks for this kit are made by bilstein but valved to H&R specs to precicely match the springs. The car is transformed on or off the track. Cornering is flat and the car is very balanced.
It really amazes me how this kit is never in someones options! It is an incredible upgrade if you dont mind the stiffness associated with an RS style upgrade and have track work in mind...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Danny, my car is 'in the shop' as I speak getting Gerts H&R coilovers with RS sways front and rear installed (amongst other things). Glad to hear yet ANOTHER happy customer on full coilovers. They are not that cheap but from what I have heard absolutely excellent!
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by rattlsnak:
<strong>Even as far as the ps9's go, I dont feel i need that range of adjustability. What about RS setups? I guess I always lean to factory stuff. Thanks again,.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like I said previously I have the H&R COILOVER kit, not to be confused with the H&R and HD combo.
This system is PSS-9 like without the adjustability of the PSS-9.I did not need the adjustability either. I paired it with the M030 sways and IMO it was the best money ever spend! Stiffer than the M030 setup, closer to the RS spec, no fitment problems with sways or perches and lowers the car to RS spec if you wish without a problem. The shocks for this kit are made by bilstein but valved to H&R specs to precicely match the springs. The car is transformed on or off the track. Cornering is flat and the car is very balanced.
It really amazes me how this kit is never in someones options! It is an incredible upgrade if you dont mind the stiffness associated with an RS style upgrade and have track work in mind...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Danny, my car is 'in the shop' as I speak getting Gerts H&R coilovers with RS sways front and rear installed (amongst other things). Glad to hear yet ANOTHER happy customer on full coilovers. They are not that cheap but from what I have heard absolutely excellent!