CodyBigdog

Here’s what you said, “Until the turbos fully kick in and you are well north of 4K RPM, the car with the M Engineering tune only feels slightly different than stock.”

I believe you, and high boost pressure is real, but that takes time to build boost, and as stated, only seem to impact performance at higher speeds than 60mph.

But here’s my disconnect - looking at Porsche’s own numbers, the GTS developes a modest 30 more HP (not sure about the torque, but they tend to track one another) than the S model. Both have the same engine and turbo. …and based on their numbers, quote a 0.1 sec drop in 0-60mph times, from the 2CS. That seems very reasonable to me. Not a huge difference, but an incremental step. The M-engineering power and torque curves (that’s all they publish, no times?) would indicate that they SHOULD be able to, at the very least, post the same 0-60mph times as the GTS…and really, would expect even quicker. But apparently not, based on a previous post after being tuned, that is (essentially) the same time as what I get from my stock S. Unless his number did not include the rollout deduction (but I assume it did, as that’s what most times include..unless otherwise noted).

Finally,, RoughRider911 posted a 1/4 mile time of 11.2sec on his tuned S (with chrono+PDK, I presume?) That time is pretty much what the untuned S gets…so, I would think (??) in the 1/4 mile, the M-engineering tuned car would/should do better?

Since I’m no expert in what M-engineering does, I think it would be educational to hear their thoughts on time improvements for the various metrics that people quote? But for ME, if the $2.4K tune doesn’t translate into improved times (at least) for 1/4 mile times, then I’m not interested in “it feels faster” perceptions. Quantifiable data is all I’m interested in.

22CarreraS

I can tell you the 0-60 times are several tenth’s faster after the tune. On a chip seal county road I did a 3.4 stock. That same road after the tune I did 3.1. (Using draggy) and a 2.97 1 foot. The reason it wasn’t faster is because I spun all through 2nd gear and looking at the logs I was at 40 percent throttle to control the wheel spin. I got very little wheel spin on the stock run. I will get numbers soon on a concrete road, now that traction is a problem.

CodyBigdog

Thx. That’s more in line with what I expected. My stock 2CS (with Chrono+PDK) posts dragy times (no rollout deduction) spot on to what Porsche quote for the 2CS of 3.3x sec With the rollout deduction, Dragy results have been(from best to worst): 3.09, 3.10 and 3.11…so, essentially, 3.1 sec (with 1 ft rollout deduction).

Tupper

I think what some people are trying to say is that a 0-60 time doesn’t do justice to the type of power a tune adds to a turbocharged engine like ours.

Looking only at 0-60 kind of undersells it.

The real gains are going to come after you’ve already gotten going. Even as low as 30-40 mph, when you mash the throttle you really see the difference as you keep going.

It’s because most of what these tunes achieve is through raising boost.

I also think that once a PDK tune comes available, allowing you to hit higher boost at lower RPMs, you will probably be able to increase 0-60 times more dramatically. I would ask Charles at M Engineering this question

CodyBigdog

Understand. I have a Dinan tune on my M4…and that does reduce “drag times” from stock numbers. So curious to see what M-engineering does? Times are quantifiable metrics that I would think many people interested in a tune, would be interested in? Maybe not?


Yes, I understand that “greater gains/improvements” are to be had at higher speeds. A primary adjustment that most tunes do (because it’s simple to do), is to adjust when, and by how much the turbo waste gate opens to relieve boost pressure. The longer and degree to which it restricts the waste gate from opening, the higher the boost pressure…simplistically speaking…which translates to moving the power band up. My M4 has a Dinan tune, and it does improve my 0-60 times by a few tenths of a sec, from stock.

0-60 is just one metric (not necessarily the most relevant metric), and a metric that every manufacturer and auto source quotes…so, well documented and easy to compare. I started out wanting to use the times Porsche quotes..nothing artificial (ie, no deductions for rollout, and the testing procedure, across all Porsche models, should be the same…unlike cherry-picking times from an auto source)… and then use the Porsche number(s) as a baseline in which to compare any future tune improvements. Unfortunately, Porsche seems to only quote 0-60 times…so that’s (primarily) why I am focused on 0-60mph.

I am (or was) an applied physicist/engineer, so my entire adult life has been dealing with quantifiable, and repeatable numbers/test results. No dig on anybody here, but when I read people say things like, “it pulls better”, or in case of the exhaust, “it sounds louder”…well, that’s nice to hear, but really doesn’t serve as a quantifiable observation….for me.

CodyBigdog

Tupper -

Even if people think 0-60 times are irrelevant, and don’t illustrate what the tune, any tune, can do on the street/track, in terms of faster times…I am totally surprised that those companies that want to sell their product, wouldn’t have, and include on their web site, 1/8mi, 1/4mi, 1/2mi…and a host of other times, like 30-70, 40-80 or 80-130mph times?? Hell, even include a before and after tune runs on a track…and show the time improvements? Listing the drag strip test run results, or, the certified dragy results is so simple. If they want, even include a disclaimer that says, not everyone will achieve the same results. Maybe they will, and maybe even better? Making a few dragy runs (for some repeatability) is easy and consumes, maybe, 30 minutes of their time. The difficult part is finding a stretch of flat 1/2 mile+ road to make the runs.

I would not have been able to financially sustain my successful business, if I didn’t have verifiable and superior specifications that I used to promote and sell to potential customers. HP/torques from a dyno is only part of the equation.

Tupper

^ Porsche displays 0-60 times because they are serving a different market: the general public. Zero to 60 is a common metric that they are used to seeing.

But for people who drive performance cars a lot and track their cars, etc I think other metrics are far more important, as discussed.

I really don't know what to tell you, you've been asking for dragy times on this forum for a while, but this is the reality. People aren't doing it because they either don't care or are too busy, etc. And the tuners probably only have a borrowed car for a short while to create their product before they return it to their owner. Their top priority is dyno results showing power band gains. For most people that is good enough, because people are still buying it.

ipse dixit

It's not just that.

If anything that this thread has shown is that 0-60 times (and not even more granular interval times like 30-60, 60-100, etc.) is so variable that comparisons will just be like horoscopes. For entertainment purposes only.

Between weather, track (or road surface), gradient, age/mileage of the car, options (i.e. weight) of the car, 0-60 times (or any times) will never be constant across different tests. Too many uncontrollable variables involved.

AlterZgo

I don't really see the point to compare 0-60 times for all the reasons stated. On my basic stage 1 tuned F80 M3, it fries the tires easily in 1st, 2nd and partially 3rd. This is with 295 rear tires which are 20mm wider than the stock 275s. I'm positive it runs a slower 0-60 than when stock. However, it is producing a lot more HP and torque at all RPM ranges - particularly down low. A Carrera S is different. Due to the massive rear grip from the rear engine and super wide stock tires, it hooks up vastly better than my M3. But, as 22CarreraS has pointed out, he's still spinning quite a bit and easing off on the throttle due to traction limitation issues. Perhaps we need to compare a stock Carrera 4S vs. a tuned Carrera 4S to really understand the theoretical 0-60 performance improvement of a tune... or just compare 60-130 times like most people w/ high HP cars do to minimize the traction factors. Redsekktor already mentioned his 60-130 dropped from 9.5 sec to just 7.1. That's a massive improvement in acceleration IMO. Of course he has a Stage 2 tune w/ sport cats too.

22CarreraS

Chasing 0-60 times is like chasing Dyno numbers. Who cares? I know I have more power than I can put down, so time is irrelevant. If you want a faster car that's more fun to drive, get the tune. If you want nothing more than a 0-60 time, buy a Demon and show everyone your time on a prepped surface.

CodyBigdog

Yes, I understand all that. Nevertheless, when cars did break the 3 sec barrier, and now the 2 sec barrier, for 0-60 times, it’s big automotive news…even if if you arn’t interested.

Yes, I already said as much. Any pre-post tune numbers are good to see…for any metic, eg, 0-60, 1/8mi, 1/4 mi, 1/2 mile, 30-70, 40-80 and 80-130. Lap times? Anything? So where are they?

I’m sorry if I gave the wrong impression…I am NOT looking to you for answers. But some comments from the tuners, themselves, would be useful? But I suspect that the people “who don’t care” are not people that would bother to tune their cars, in the first place? Before I did a Dinan tune on my M4, I was very reluctant to tune, and thus possibly voiding my warranty…but once I got over that anxiety, in hindsight, tuning was such an easy, and relatively inexpensive way to make my car faster…which most BMW owners want.

The dyno results have been determined quite some time ago…with the natural progression to translate those results into what matters to anybody that races (street or track)…lap, or 1/4 times, etc

As for why the tuners don’t post any numbers…can’t speak to M-Engineering, but it’s been my experience that some aftermarket tuners, specialty shops, etc will: (1) Take in a car as a “development car”, to keep (or borrow) for an extended period, to develop new products, and then re-sell after the car has been modified or newer model comes out, or (2) in my buddies case, they took his car in, almost on consignment, made it faster and then gave him a heavily discounted price on the labor and parts, etc. Oh, and as someone who owned a business, the question to ask is - what can I do to sell MORE of what I am offering, and not simply being satisfied with what you sell, today.

Just one example from “Dinan’s development program”: https://www.dinancars.com/development-car-program/

CodyBigdog

What tune did you have on your M3?

Not my experience with my Dinan tune on my 2016 M4. Tune was performed in 2017. 0-60 times dropped ~0.2 sec. 1/4 mile ~ 0.4 sec reduction.

As for 22Caarerra S experience with spinning wheels, etc…one can improve grip, significantly, by making sure the tires are warm…if not, then do it on a prepped / sticky surface. Same thing about getting the tires warm at the track, before you begin to push things in the corners. Better yet, run slicks. Then there’s also the issue of which tires offer the best traction?

When I achieved my best 0-60 times of 3.09 sec (deduction included), on my stock 2CS, I did it on a 70F day, after my tires were thoroughly warmed up after 30 minutes of spirited driving. No discernible (audible) wheel spin.

Yes, 4CS would be best. That will help take some, or most of the grip issues out of the equation.

The 60-130 mph time reduction, while good to hear, is only useful, to me, when I’m on the track. It’s not a metric I am likely to experience on the street. ..while 0-60, 1/8 mi, 30-70 and 40-80 times are times that I can experience while on the street.

chong0

A few observations:
-aside from a 0-60, the metrics you are looking for are almost impossible to obtain on street roads.
-perhaps someone with a tune will go to the track with their laptop and run 2 sessions that are pre-tune and post-tune to justify spending money, but it is VERY obvious that post-tune the car behaves completely differently and IMO a waste of a session running pre-tune assuming your other variables (tire pressures, brake fade, technique) remain constant
-a number of people who have bought the M-tune have an MT, and could care less about 0-60 times and launches (including myself)
-having been "de-tuned" for a few weeks awaiting my service visit, I can't wait to reinstall the tune.

I had a Dinan tune on my M5 (again an MT). It was not nearly as impressive as the M-tune. The Dinan tune I believe was $3k at the time.

Think of the tune like a statin. everyone should have one (slightly kidding).

CodyBigdog

Says who, and why? I have 1/8 mile times, already….and with a different stretch of road that isn’t sloped (disqualified by dragy), I will get 1/4 mi. 1/4 mile is harder to do, both because of the longer distance, but also because of the speed involved. But 1/8 mi is very doable on many streets/highways. It all depends on one’s tolerance level. I draw my limit, on the street, at about 100mph.

I won’t hold my breadth. However, as I said above, I’m surprise the people that tune and provide a service to make cars faster, for a living, don’t bother? I would if this was my product. Brake fade won’t happen after a few runs. Positive. It would be vey easy to make a run on a 2+ mile track on a stock car…do it a few times to understand the repeatability, and error bars… and then y take an average. Repeat with the tune. This is not rocket science, and would expect the difference to be much larger than the error bar/variability from run to run.



And that’s fine…they can care about anything they want, but saying it “seems faster”, “pulls stronger after a certain speed” means jack to me. If it’s not quantified by time runs (any time tun) then simply saying you have more HP is well, just a talking point.

..and speaking of “not caring”…I don’t. But cool for you, bro.

See, that’s where we differ…you state the Dinan tune on your BMW was “not nearly as impressive” as the M-tune on your Porsche. No data, just “not as impressive”. LOL. Apples and oranges my friend. Apples and oranges. Two different tunes, on two different cars. My Dinan tune on my M4 yielded quantifiable time improvements,, in both 60 times, and 1/4 mile times.

“Statin” You mean the drug?

reddsektor

How is it only useful to you on a track??? Just because you may not be able to experience it on the street, the metric still shows the pure, full, power range (better than 0-60 or 1/4) of a car, that can be applied to or give you a sense of all other practical speed ranges on the street that you’re referring to.

And I’m coming from a f82 M4 tuned on bm3 stg1