Manual Transmission
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I'm not a purist and I'm not trying to start a debate. But I have to say, this MT is amazing, just amazing. My last 991, a 991.2 GTS with PDK was amazing. But I wound up with an MT M3 for a few months, and I found my 911 sitting in the driveway. I thought I needed the PDK for the acceleration, but I was wrong. The manual is just so much more engaging. Again, not trying to stir up a debate, but anyone looking at this car as a daily driver, and may be concered about the manual, it is amazing. So easy to use on a daily commute, and particularly invigorating for a spirited drive. I would recommend to anyone to give it a shot, its amazing. I'm sure there are hundreds of threads of like this, and if you feel the need to point me in their direction, feel free.
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12-05-2020, 06:51 PM
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@detansinn
Finally [dons flame suit], every time someone say "PDK because I'm going to the track" I roll my eyes. Sure, it may save you a second per lap with PDK but unless you are a professional, there are many many seconds that you are loosing in every other way.
Finally [dons flame suit], every time someone say "PDK because I'm going to the track" I roll my eyes. Sure, it may save you a second per lap with PDK but unless you are a professional, there are many many seconds that you are loosing in every other way.
Unfortunately my life experience says that most people who have been tracking for years turn their brain off to improving or listening to advice. I don't know why it happens so consistently (Even when I was learning from a former F1 driver I had to mentally remind myself to not be cocky and to just do what he says) but so far the only thing I've found that gives most people a reality check is humiliating them on the track. I had one student this summer going for his road race license that was convinced his lines were better than mine because he's been lapping the track we're at for years. Truth be told he was above average, but was a long way from being fast. After almost a full day of him not seeing the light and ignoring what I was saying about a lot of things, I told him ok, screw it, Go Full Out, you run your lines in front of me, and i'll try to pass you. Then we'll swap and you'll try to pass me while I'm running my lines. I was in a stock miata I just bought for the event on all-season tires because I figured if I had to do lead/follow (covid rules) instructing at a slow pace, I might as well buy a car that I could be somewhat close to the limit in rather than wanting to blow my brains out driving 2 full days at a snails pace. He's in a fully prepped bmw race car on race tires. Realistically he should take one corner and leave me in the dust. So off we go, and he does his thing, and I do my thing, and i'm having no problem keeping up, and am initialing passes on him exactly where I said I could pass him and then backing off to make pass attempt after pass attempt to hammer it home that it's not luck. I give the signal, we swap, and he's not able to do it. Couldn't make one passing attempt on me despite having every car advantage; power, weight, suspension, tires, etc. We come in to the pits and he's super excited, and goes 'You convinced me!'.
I understand that people want to look fast (especially if they aren't fast) and want their car to have every advantage to make themselves look fast, but no one is really paying attention unless you really stand out. And to get any sort of praise/respect/positive comments you either need one of the best cars (preferably by a huge margin) at the lapping day so the amateurs who don't know any better think you're fast, or you need to obviously drive better than those around you by a huge margin so it's obvious to all. I also know from experience that most people that show up with a track monster car like a GT3/Ferrari/GTR for their first track even never come back because of how obvious it is they suck at driving. Best to bring something less crazy, realize everyone sucks their first time, realize that everyone who tracks knows that everyone sucks their first time and no one good is making fun of you, realize you are soooo much faster your 2nd and 3rd time and that it's hugely addictive, and then bring the crazy car.
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I made that same choice when I moved to DC and got rid of my MT, but then came back to it. These cars are easy to drive in traffic with the manual.
One of my Porsche buddies ordered a ‘19 GTS with PDK and wanted it for track. If I was a serious driver and taking it to the track, I’d want the PDK.
I’ve had MTs all my life in many sports cars, but I am about 51/49 on desire for MT vs PDK on this 992 C2S. It might be nice to drive it at its optimum ability and I know my skill level will never shift those gears as well as the PDK. But still, I have fun with it.
One additional thought: if I had the PDK I would probably have it in manual mode most of the time. The gear box seemed overly busy on the tight twisties. I haven’t read a similar opinion and wonder if it had to do with the demo car that I was driving.
One of my Porsche buddies ordered a ‘19 GTS with PDK and wanted it for track. If I was a serious driver and taking it to the track, I’d want the PDK.
I’ve had MTs all my life in many sports cars, but I am about 51/49 on desire for MT vs PDK on this 992 C2S. It might be nice to drive it at its optimum ability and I know my skill level will never shift those gears as well as the PDK. But still, I have fun with it.
One additional thought: if I had the PDK I would probably have it in manual mode most of the time. The gear box seemed overly busy on the tight twisties. I haven’t read a similar opinion and wonder if it had to do with the demo car that I was driving.
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dashanin (12-02-2020)
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totally agree. PDK is faster, but for pure driving pleasure - there is nothing like MT. And wife can't steal your car
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Tedster (12-08-2020)
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I think everyone should be forced to learn driving in a manual car...it gives an appreciation of how engaged you need to be concentrating on not just the road but what the car is actually doing.
btw, my wife is probably a better driver than me when it comes to spirited runs, I’m more “Miss Daisy in the back” and she’s “angry kid up front”
Lastly, PDK all the way, compared to the old SMG boxes 20 yrs back these things are are marvel of engineering!
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I have the manual 2020 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited, and my C4S is Manual. I wanted my kids to learn on the jeep, just so they had the "experience" before you cannot find any manual trans any longer. I also enjoy the auto in my other sports cars. It is nice to have the option still, neither is better - all depends on what you are looking for. I will go manual on the porsche as long as it is available, and then go PDK when it is not.
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#6
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Ah-hmmm..... in my case she can, and she will!
I think everyone should be forced to learn driving in a manual car...it gives an appreciation of how engaged you need to be concentrating on not just the road but what the car is actually doing.
btw, my wife is probably a better driver than me when it comes to spirited runs, I’m more “Miss Daisy in the back” and she’s “angry kid up front”
Lastly, PDK all the way, compared to the old SMG boxes 20 yrs back these things are are marvel of engineering!
I think everyone should be forced to learn driving in a manual car...it gives an appreciation of how engaged you need to be concentrating on not just the road but what the car is actually doing.
btw, my wife is probably a better driver than me when it comes to spirited runs, I’m more “Miss Daisy in the back” and she’s “angry kid up front”
Lastly, PDK all the way, compared to the old SMG boxes 20 yrs back these things are are marvel of engineering!
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FlyJacket (12-08-2020)
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This is the first time in more than 30 years that I don't own a car with a manual transmission. We've got 3 DCTs in our "fleet" that I drive almost exclusively using the paddles. Paddles were always exotic to me, something found only on race cars in the 80s. As a child of the 70s, young me would have been totally stoked that middle aged me has three cars with paddles. Heck, when I had the opportunity to drive my first sequential transmission car, I felt right home having grown up on motorcycles and dirt bikes.
I used to be a three pedal snob. For years, I mocked slushbox/torque converter transmissions for their weight and how they robbed power. I took pride in my glorious heel/toe skills and extracting the maximum power from an engine and getting it to the road. Every daily that I've had over the past 30+ years was equipped with a 3 pedal manual transmission. As turbocharging started to appear in everything, the engineer in me started to notice that a manual gearbox wasn't cutting it. Even with my "mad skillz", it's hard to extract power from an engine when you're fighting to keep it in the boost during gear changes. I did short shift kits, special bushings, and exotic aftermarket linkages -- mechanical steps to speed the shifts. I also dabbled in ECU programming for flat foot shifting. It was all workarounds and hackery.
For me, it was my little Alfa 4C finally sold me on DCTs. Its tiny 1.7l 4 cylinder turbo'd to hell and back that really only works paired with a quick shifting DCT. It's the car that broke my snobbery and delivered the goods when I attacked challenging backroads. When people asked Alfa about a manual transmission for the 4C, they demured, because you wouldn't be able to extract the performance out of the 4C without that transmission. Driven properly with the paddles, the DCT is a different experience than a manual, but easily equals a manual when it comes to engagement as you click off those shifts.
Dual clutch transmissions were invented to keep turbocharged race cars in/on the boost. This is why they exist. It's why Porsche developed the PDK. Like many innovations, it came out of a specific need in racing. Of course, back then, turbochargers and forced induction were something rare and exotic in a production street car. Today, turbos are everywhere and to get the maximum performance out of the car, you want a DCT.
I fully appreciate that some people want that 3 pedal experience, but between hill assist, rev-matching, anti-stall, etc, there's a lot of babysitting with these modern "manual" transmissions. (Heck, the Alfa's lightweight dry clutch DCT doesn't even have hill assist.:P) If you want that kind of 3 pedal experience, I think that it's great that Porsche offers it. That being said, for me, I never even considered a manual transmission for my 992 build wishlist. I wanted to be able to get the most out of that turbocharged engine. Given how I drive and as many miles that I drive, I'm really happy with my choice.
Whatever your preference is, go out and actually drive your car -- enjoy it!
I used to be a three pedal snob. For years, I mocked slushbox/torque converter transmissions for their weight and how they robbed power. I took pride in my glorious heel/toe skills and extracting the maximum power from an engine and getting it to the road. Every daily that I've had over the past 30+ years was equipped with a 3 pedal manual transmission. As turbocharging started to appear in everything, the engineer in me started to notice that a manual gearbox wasn't cutting it. Even with my "mad skillz", it's hard to extract power from an engine when you're fighting to keep it in the boost during gear changes. I did short shift kits, special bushings, and exotic aftermarket linkages -- mechanical steps to speed the shifts. I also dabbled in ECU programming for flat foot shifting. It was all workarounds and hackery.
For me, it was my little Alfa 4C finally sold me on DCTs. Its tiny 1.7l 4 cylinder turbo'd to hell and back that really only works paired with a quick shifting DCT. It's the car that broke my snobbery and delivered the goods when I attacked challenging backroads. When people asked Alfa about a manual transmission for the 4C, they demured, because you wouldn't be able to extract the performance out of the 4C without that transmission. Driven properly with the paddles, the DCT is a different experience than a manual, but easily equals a manual when it comes to engagement as you click off those shifts.
Dual clutch transmissions were invented to keep turbocharged race cars in/on the boost. This is why they exist. It's why Porsche developed the PDK. Like many innovations, it came out of a specific need in racing. Of course, back then, turbochargers and forced induction were something rare and exotic in a production street car. Today, turbos are everywhere and to get the maximum performance out of the car, you want a DCT.
I fully appreciate that some people want that 3 pedal experience, but between hill assist, rev-matching, anti-stall, etc, there's a lot of babysitting with these modern "manual" transmissions. (Heck, the Alfa's lightweight dry clutch DCT doesn't even have hill assist.:P) If you want that kind of 3 pedal experience, I think that it's great that Porsche offers it. That being said, for me, I never even considered a manual transmission for my 992 build wishlist. I wanted to be able to get the most out of that turbocharged engine. Given how I drive and as many miles that I drive, I'm really happy with my choice.
Whatever your preference is, go out and actually drive your car -- enjoy it!
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This is the first time in more than 30 years that I don't own a car with a manual transmission. We've got 3 DCTs in our "fleet" that I drive almost exclusively using the paddles. Paddles were always exotic to me, something found only on race cars in the 80s. As a child of the 70s, young me would have been totally stoked that middle aged me has three cars with paddles. Heck, when I had the opportunity to drive my first sequential transmission car, I felt right home having grown up on motorcycles and dirt bikes.
I used to be a three pedal snob. For years, I mocked slushbox/torque converter transmissions for their weight and how they robbed power. I took pride in my glorious heel/toe skills and extracting the maximum power from an engine and getting it to the road. Every daily that I've had over the past 30+ years was equipped with a 3 pedal manual transmission. As turbocharging started to appear in everything, the engineer in me started to notice that a manual gearbox wasn't cutting it. Even with my "mad skillz", it's hard to extract power from an engine when you're fighting to keep it in the boost during gear changes. I did short shift kits, special bushings, and exotic aftermarket linkages -- mechanical steps to speed the shifts. I also dabbled in ECU programming for flat foot shifting. It was all workarounds and hackery.
For me, it was my little Alfa 4C finally sold me on DCTs. Its tiny 1.7l 4 cylinder turbo'd to hell and back that really only works paired with a quick shifting DCT. It's the car that broke my snobbery and delivered the goods when I attacked challenging backroads. When people asked Alfa about a manual transmission for the 4C, they demured, because you wouldn't be able to extract the performance out of the 4C without that transmission. Driven properly with the paddles, the DCT is a different experience than a manual, but easily equals a manual when it comes to engagement as you click off those shifts.
Dual clutch transmissions were invented to keep turbocharged race cars in/on the boost. This is why they exist. It's why Porsche developed the PDK. Like many innovations, it came out of a specific need in racing. Of course, back then, turbochargers and forced induction were something rare and exotic in a production street car. Today, turbos are everywhere and to get the maximum performance out of the car, you want a DCT.
I fully appreciate that some people want that 3 pedal experience, but between hill assist, rev-matching, anti-stall, etc, there's a lot of babysitting with these modern "manual" transmissions. (Heck, the Alfa's lightweight dry clutch DCT doesn't even have hill assist.:P) If you want that kind of 3 pedal experience, I think that it's great that Porsche offers it. That being said, for me, I never even considered a manual transmission for my 992 build wishlist. I wanted to be able to get the most out of that turbocharged engine. Given how I drive and as many miles that I drive, I'm really happy with my choice.
Whatever your preference is, go out and actually drive your car -- enjoy it!
I used to be a three pedal snob. For years, I mocked slushbox/torque converter transmissions for their weight and how they robbed power. I took pride in my glorious heel/toe skills and extracting the maximum power from an engine and getting it to the road. Every daily that I've had over the past 30+ years was equipped with a 3 pedal manual transmission. As turbocharging started to appear in everything, the engineer in me started to notice that a manual gearbox wasn't cutting it. Even with my "mad skillz", it's hard to extract power from an engine when you're fighting to keep it in the boost during gear changes. I did short shift kits, special bushings, and exotic aftermarket linkages -- mechanical steps to speed the shifts. I also dabbled in ECU programming for flat foot shifting. It was all workarounds and hackery.
For me, it was my little Alfa 4C finally sold me on DCTs. Its tiny 1.7l 4 cylinder turbo'd to hell and back that really only works paired with a quick shifting DCT. It's the car that broke my snobbery and delivered the goods when I attacked challenging backroads. When people asked Alfa about a manual transmission for the 4C, they demured, because you wouldn't be able to extract the performance out of the 4C without that transmission. Driven properly with the paddles, the DCT is a different experience than a manual, but easily equals a manual when it comes to engagement as you click off those shifts.
Dual clutch transmissions were invented to keep turbocharged race cars in/on the boost. This is why they exist. It's why Porsche developed the PDK. Like many innovations, it came out of a specific need in racing. Of course, back then, turbochargers and forced induction were something rare and exotic in a production street car. Today, turbos are everywhere and to get the maximum performance out of the car, you want a DCT.
I fully appreciate that some people want that 3 pedal experience, but between hill assist, rev-matching, anti-stall, etc, there's a lot of babysitting with these modern "manual" transmissions. (Heck, the Alfa's lightweight dry clutch DCT doesn't even have hill assist.:P) If you want that kind of 3 pedal experience, I think that it's great that Porsche offers it. That being said, for me, I never even considered a manual transmission for my 992 build wishlist. I wanted to be able to get the most out of that turbocharged engine. Given how I drive and as many miles that I drive, I'm really happy with my choice.
Whatever your preference is, go out and actually drive your car -- enjoy it!
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detansinn (12-02-2020)
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Others like their PDK, I'm like you and prefer a manual. But I am very thankful to our friends who buy PDK cars because it enables Porsche to reduce fleet emissions averages but sell some of us manual versions of the exact same car.
The actual mechanism used to achieve it is pretty amazing too, pure mechanics with many of the (excellent) electronics needed for automatic operation either removed or switched off. They rely much more on the computer we have between our ears which is of course fallible and less consistent but such is life.
The actual mechanism used to achieve it is pretty amazing too, pure mechanics with many of the (excellent) electronics needed for automatic operation either removed or switched off. They rely much more on the computer we have between our ears which is of course fallible and less consistent but such is life.
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I'm currently toying with adding a McLaren S650 to my garage. Used prices on those getting more and more reasonable. And unavailability of MT in McLaren is killing me. But I guess I'll have to sacrifice. And keep my Porsche for MT joy.
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detansinn (12-02-2020)
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When you get the McLaren, definitely get the extended warranty, because when things break on that car, which they often do, repair costs are eye watering.
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gymdent (12-03-2020)
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I’m getting a PDK for many reasons, including some of those cited by the OP. But I truly admire the spirit of those that choose Manual. One of the great things about Porsche is we get to assemble our own version of fun. I respect others’ choices. So many times I see builds that are clever, fantastic and challenge my own choices.
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#13
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A MT for safety is another advantage that is rarely discussed. In winter once you are rolling, the type of transmission no longer matters. Getting it moving, turning or stopping under control is another matter. I've suffered with dozens of cars with auto T, DCT and MT in the snow, with FWD, RWD and AWD. As an old guy with a 718 I still prefer the MT for control and safety in the winter. However, I have no doubt the PDK would be superior on the track and bumper to bumper traffic.
We sometimes joke about the MT as a theft deterrent. Here's a recent carjacking story from a past neighborhood of mine that suggests just that, "...police said the suspect was unable to get the car to drive." He did shoot the car at least once, but in his defense it was a BMW.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news...robbery-sunday
We sometimes joke about the MT as a theft deterrent. Here's a recent carjacking story from a past neighborhood of mine that suggests just that, "...police said the suspect was unable to get the car to drive." He did shoot the car at least once, but in his defense it was a BMW.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news...robbery-sunday
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Dual clutch transmissions were invented to keep turbocharged race cars in/on the boost. This is why they exist. It's why Porsche developed the PDK. Like many innovations, it came out of a specific need in racing. Of course, back then, turbochargers and forced induction were something rare and exotic in a production street car. Today, turbos are everywhere and to get the maximum performance out of the car, you want a DCT.
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A nicely written perspective, but I am doubtful that DCT was developed because of turbos. In fact, automated manual gearboxes were really developed during the post-turbo F1 era. Speed of shifting and allowing the driver to focus on other things were incentive enough to see automatic transmission development.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission
Last edited by detansinn; 12-02-2020 at 09:35 PM.
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