How much is a lease on a 130k 911?
12-16-2019, 06:25 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Last time I crunched lease numbers the money factor needed to be at or below .001 to be less expensive than a purchase. I agree that a 10 to 12 year auto loan is insane and you have to look at the total cost not the monthly payments.
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detansinn (12-16-2019)
12-16-2019, 11:59 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
I leased my last 16 cars (including 6 BMWs and other luxury brands - always 15k miles per year and 36 months and zero cap cost reduction) and it made financial sense for me in those cases - at this point I can run the lease numbers as fast and accurately as the finance person at the dealership. The 992 currently is a TERRIBLE lease proposition due to Porsche setting lower residuals than actuality (the opposite of other brands like BMW) and also using a very high money factor (MF*2400=interest rate). I would suggest going with a 60 month finance instead even with a relatively high interest rate of 4%-6%. If you lease you will be paying almost as much to rent a car for three years (and give it back at the end) than to buy it via financing over 5-6 years.
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12-17-2019, 12:33 AM
#18
If you've got good credit, auto loans are landing between 3-4% right now in the United States, ie money is cheap, even for used cars.
For many folks, it's smarter to leverage that "cheap money" than paying cash, because whatever you do with the big lump of cash, it will probably outperform that 3-4% APR.
10 and 12 year car loans are stupid. Please don't do that. It's a sure-fire way to be upside-down in your car. If you can only "afford" the car doing a 120 month or 144 month high interest loan, you should not be buying the car -- you really can't afford it. Find something used (CPO) or another car that's cheaper altogether. I don't intend to crush anyone's dream here, but it's reality. There's something to be said for waiting when you can actually do it for real and enjoy the car.
For many folks, it's smarter to leverage that "cheap money" than paying cash, because whatever you do with the big lump of cash, it will probably outperform that 3-4% APR.
10 and 12 year car loans are stupid. Please don't do that. It's a sure-fire way to be upside-down in your car. If you can only "afford" the car doing a 120 month or 144 month high interest loan, you should not be buying the car -- you really can't afford it. Find something used (CPO) or another car that's cheaper altogether. I don't intend to crush anyone's dream here, but it's reality. There's something to be said for waiting when you can actually do it for real and enjoy the car.
A guy I know (who now runs are a very popular YouTube car channel) was at one point Atlanta’s go to exotic car dealer. I asked him one time if the people buying these exotics can actually afford them. Be put his drink down and laughed. Told me the majority of folks are financing over 12 years, and a fair number of them get repossessed within a couple of years.
12-17-2019, 12:36 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
If you are new to leasing here is a response I posted to a lease question on an Alfa Romeo forum about 18 months ago that might be useful.
Some background info: I leased a Stelvio back in July 2018 (order placed in March) - got over $10k off MSRP on a custom ordered $56k vehicle (negotiated $2547 below invoice and then applied $3750 in rebates) and with a 0.00027 Money Factor (0.64% interest) and a 60% Residual Value for 15000 miles per year on a 2 year lease. Compare those Money Factor and Residual Value numbers and miles per year to a lease on a 992...
Some background info: I leased a Stelvio back in July 2018 (order placed in March) - got over $10k off MSRP on a custom ordered $56k vehicle (negotiated $2547 below invoice and then applied $3750 in rebates) and with a 0.00027 Money Factor (0.64% interest) and a 60% Residual Value for 15000 miles per year on a 2 year lease. Compare those Money Factor and Residual Value numbers and miles per year to a lease on a 992...
When leasing you are paying for two things: depreciation on the vehicle over 24/36/39 months and the interest on borrowed money to the bank (who actually owns the vehicle during your lease). The current Money Factor (MF) for Stelvio Ti Sport for 24 months is 0.00008 (*2400 = 0.192% interest so very low and under $10 per month in your case - and you can't effect this number as it is set by the bank). The Residual Value (RV) is also set by the bank but assumes MSRP ($53k in your case) and on 24 month/10k miles per year is currently 61% - so your vehicle will depreciate 39% over the 24 months and be worth $32330 to the bank at the end. If you managed to negotiate your sale price of the vehicle from $53k to, say, $50k (called the Cap Cost) and then applied $4000 of rebates and incentives (set by Alfa Romeo, varies by region) to that negotiated price to get to $46k then you are only paying for $14k depreciation over 24 months = about $580 per month. Add the $2000 in up front Cap Cost Reduction you mentioned and the $580 drops by about $83 per month to $497.
I made up the above numbers but hopefully you get the gist of it. And you may have noticed that everything above is fixed by the bank or by Alfa Romeo (MF, RV, MSRP, Rebates etc) and the only thing you can control is the negotiated sales price - just like if you were buying the car vs leasing it. Focus on getting a good sale price - below invoice is easily possible for the Stelvio right now.
Never put down money up front on a lease (called Cap Cost Reduction). Basically you have the option to pay $2000 across 24 monthly payments of $83 per month, or pay it all on day one (no benefit or discount in paying up front). Also if you have an accident and write off the car in month 2 of 24 you don't get anything back from the $2000 you paid up front from your insurance whereas if you had paid that $2000 over the 24 months you would be better off. Of course sometimes one is aiming to stay below a $ amount per month (to keep spouse happy or whatever) so a small Cap Cost Reduction might be ok (but $2k on a $53k vehicle is way too much).
Some unscrupulous dealerships will lie to you about the Money Factor (interest rate) and say you are getting a great deal at 2% (vs the actual 0.192% set by the bank) or will muddle other numbers, or keep incentives for themselves, or hide a bunch of stuff in inflated inception costs (registration, doc fees etc) - just walk away from any dealership not willing to disclose the actual numbers they are using.
I use Edmunds for MF and RV info for leases: https://forums.edmunds.com/discussio...-and-prices/p6
This is a good lease calculator: https://www.bankrate.com/calculators...alculator.aspx
Hope this helps. Having said all the above I think your lease deal is not too bad - I ran some reverse calculations and am guessing your final price including rebates is about $45,700 so over $7k off MSRP. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions - I've leased my last 15 vehicles and enjoy discussing the process. I have found that leasing works best for cars with high Residual Values (think the established luxury brands like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus), or for cars with a large gap between MSRP and the actual selling price (thanks to rebates, dealerships willing to go below invoice etc) or ideally both scenarios.
Hope this helps someone... in summary if you are not getting a HUGE discount off MSRP (I'm talking well over 10%) AND/OR you are not getting a great Residual Value and Money Factor - then don't lease. Instead put down a decent deposit and finance the car over 48/60/72 months (but NOT 120+ months!). If that is too expensive then buy a CPO car or wait.
I made up the above numbers but hopefully you get the gist of it. And you may have noticed that everything above is fixed by the bank or by Alfa Romeo (MF, RV, MSRP, Rebates etc) and the only thing you can control is the negotiated sales price - just like if you were buying the car vs leasing it. Focus on getting a good sale price - below invoice is easily possible for the Stelvio right now.
Never put down money up front on a lease (called Cap Cost Reduction). Basically you have the option to pay $2000 across 24 monthly payments of $83 per month, or pay it all on day one (no benefit or discount in paying up front). Also if you have an accident and write off the car in month 2 of 24 you don't get anything back from the $2000 you paid up front from your insurance whereas if you had paid that $2000 over the 24 months you would be better off. Of course sometimes one is aiming to stay below a $ amount per month (to keep spouse happy or whatever) so a small Cap Cost Reduction might be ok (but $2k on a $53k vehicle is way too much).
Some unscrupulous dealerships will lie to you about the Money Factor (interest rate) and say you are getting a great deal at 2% (vs the actual 0.192% set by the bank) or will muddle other numbers, or keep incentives for themselves, or hide a bunch of stuff in inflated inception costs (registration, doc fees etc) - just walk away from any dealership not willing to disclose the actual numbers they are using.
I use Edmunds for MF and RV info for leases: https://forums.edmunds.com/discussio...-and-prices/p6
This is a good lease calculator: https://www.bankrate.com/calculators...alculator.aspx
Hope this helps. Having said all the above I think your lease deal is not too bad - I ran some reverse calculations and am guessing your final price including rebates is about $45,700 so over $7k off MSRP. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions - I've leased my last 15 vehicles and enjoy discussing the process. I have found that leasing works best for cars with high Residual Values (think the established luxury brands like BMW, Mercedes, Lexus), or for cars with a large gap between MSRP and the actual selling price (thanks to rebates, dealerships willing to go below invoice etc) or ideally both scenarios.
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detansinn (12-17-2019)
12-17-2019, 01:32 AM
#20
Drifting
Leasing can make financial sense if you are writing off a portion of the expense as a business tax write-off. I did so for my GTS. I leased (3 years) to owned it. It is my daily driver, "company car." Yes, I ultimately paid quite a bit more than I would have if I had bought it outright but, per my CPA, when you buy the car from the get-go, you can only write-off the car's depreciation. Furthermore, at the time I leased the car, I did not have $140,000 to spare (not including registration fees and 9% CA sales tax). On the other hand, I was able to write a check for my Touring and it is very liberating (and ultimately less costly) to own the car outright. It got old giving Porsche over $2,000 a month for 36 months for my GTS. My residual after 3 years was about $90,000. Do the math and I spent somewhere between $170,000 and $180,000 on my GTS ($140,000 sticker). That's almost as much as I spent on my Touring. That is the bad news. The good news is I love both cars and I own them both. All's well that ends well.
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detansinn (12-17-2019)
12-17-2019, 10:54 AM
#21
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
people don’t do that? You mean, people shouldn’t do that.
A guy I know (who now runs are a very popular YouTube car channel) was at one point Atlanta’s go to exotic car dealer. I asked him one time if the people buying these exotics can actually afford them. Be put his drink down and laughed. Told me the majority of folks are financing over 12 years, and a fair number of them get repossessed within a couple of years.
A guy I know (who now runs are a very popular YouTube car channel) was at one point Atlanta’s go to exotic car dealer. I asked him one time if the people buying these exotics can actually afford them. Be put his drink down and laughed. Told me the majority of folks are financing over 12 years, and a fair number of them get repossessed within a couple of years.
It's remarkable what is happening to the lower end of the middle class where people are now doing 7 year loans to buy something like a Jeep. Unfortunately, seven year car loans are becoming the norm for a lot of Americans. It's a model that doesn't work and ends up being a spiral where they roll that debt into the next car loan. The WSJ did an interesting article on this a couple of months ago...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-sev...rs-11569941215
12-17-2019, 01:08 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
12-17-2019, 10:52 PM
#23
people don’t do that? You mean, people shouldn’t do that.
A guy I know (who now runs are a very popular YouTube car channel) was at one point Atlanta’s go to exotic car dealer. I asked him one time if the people buying these exotics can actually afford them. Be put his drink down and laughed. Told me the majority of folks are financing over 12 years, and a fair number of them get repossessed within a couple of years.
A guy I know (who now runs are a very popular YouTube car channel) was at one point Atlanta’s go to exotic car dealer. I asked him one time if the people buying these exotics can actually afford them. Be put his drink down and laughed. Told me the majority of folks are financing over 12 years, and a fair number of them get repossessed within a couple of years.
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detansinn (12-18-2019)