spdracerut

Was comparing 911 to 911, drops mic. Find a way a add 200 lb-ft of torque to the GT3 NA engine without going forced induction or nitrous or adding an hybrid system with electric motor. Picks up mic and drops mic again. Oh, and the GTS gets better gas mileage on the street too. Picks up mic and drops mic again.

And just to be clear on what the argument was, someone was complaining about turbo lag. I countered with I would rather have a couple tenths lag and an additional 200 lb-ft of torque.

garfunkle

Why do you need 200ft lb more torque in a GT3? What race series is using a derivative of the 3.0tt and not a GT3 engine? There's your answer. (smashes guitar on the mic that slipped out of your hands)

Who the hell compares performance specs of a sports car and cares about MPG's? (pushes you off stage)

Dr. Ice

OHWHATDA

garfunkle

You're right. Progress is needed for Porsche to sustain. But, the 991.2 was a flop in terms of sales figures vs the 991.1 and didn't offer enough performance increase to matter. Tech was a mild improvement but still light years behind the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. I have a BMW for an appliance car and don't care about tech in a sports car. Hell, I'm lusting after a V8 Vantage GT....

Dr. Ice

spdracerut

What top level race series uses a rear-engined Porsche? Or right.... Porsche made the 911 RSR mid-engine.... And actually, fuel economy is VERY important in motorsports, especially 24 hour of Le Mans. If they can stretch one extra lap on a stint, that translates into many pit stops eliminated which saves many minutes over the course of 24 hours. And when recent races have been decided by less than a lap, every minute counts. Burns stage down that guitar swinging dude was on taking the whole venue with it.

garfunkle

The NA cars get better economy when you actually drive them. The 3.0tt only wins when you don't get into boost. Like that test with an M3 against a Prius and the M3 got better economy for hot laps. No 24 hour Porsches use turbos. The RSR cars are mid engine - yes. But we were talking performance of things that existed and how is that relevant when I brought up dyne curves of other things and the response was - " well, we're only considering 3.8NA vs 3.0tt"?

dkhm3

I don't find that to be true in real daily driving.

Both my m3 and x5m are twin turbo, both return better gas mileage for me on the streets, under hard driving vs equivalent NA.

As far as turbo lag, I had switched from a NA 6.2 v8 amg engine for 3 years and I have adapted my driving to avoid most all lag with FI engines. I just have to anticipate the engine's response by downshifting a bit earlier before throttle. What is most important to me is the engine applies consistent throttle each time.

I think Randy Pobst video of the 991.2 S sums it up the best, when he says he can't tell it is turbocharged at all. I test drove the S before I ordered one, and I did not sense much lag for me. I've never driven a GT3, so perhaps ignorance is bliss.

OHWHATDA

groundhog

991.2 2018 - H1 double digital growth y-o-y 28% Source Porsche Newsroom

The 991.2 - 991.1 change as reported by Porsche, represented the single largest leap in performance between any generation.

When magazine racing its wise to compare like for like e.g. same track - same driver. For example the difference between the 991.2 S and 991.14S at Laguna Seca, when driven by Randy Pobst was around 2.5 seconds a lap. Likewise when Chris Gebhardt tested the 991.2 GTS at Hockenheim Short is was ~ 2.9s quicker than his time in the 991.1 GTS - keep in mind his time in the .2 GTS was within 0.1s of his time in the 991 series II GT3.

The 992 will improve on these time differences ~ 0.5s/minute or thereabouts.

Its how you drive them that counts and this applies to NA as much as turbo. . Good drivers adapt and optimise.

You could always sign up for a 982 718 GT4.....that should give you the experience you're looking for (or pick up a used GT3 - plenty of them out there).

limegreen

This whole turbo vs NA argument is dead upon the realization that Porsche DID NOT want to turbocharge the 911 Carrera. This industry wide movement towards downsized turbo engines is nothing more than the result of pressure for reduced emissions and fuel consumption. It offers them the ability to essentially cheat the regulations while offering more power which is produced "on demand" to satisfy the requirements of a consumer base that is virtually absent of all logic when it comes to purchase motivation.

Turbos add significant cost and complexity to the engineering process, vehicle design and layout, increased component count and weight along with reduced reliability, increased warranty claims, added complexity regarding diagnosis and repair etc. and also carries with it several other drawbacks including lag, reduced throttle response and driving dynamics, muted exhaust note etc.

The added performance, while being a nice side effect, is basically a consolation prize for having to deal with not only the drawbacks but the realization that the maintenance and repair costs will also be significantly higher for those who do not treat their 911's as 2-3 yr. rentals.

The turbo engine movement ( scam) has unfortunately swept the industry and Porsche is now caught up in it just the same. It unfortunately is here to stay and has proven successful because the average consumer buys on nothing more than face value figures with little consideration for anything else or at least until they realize that the fuel economy numbers posted on the window sticker are almost impossible to achieve in real world driving....

Porsche911GTS'16

...what Limegreen said. As an added bonus, the turbo Carreras get the turbo whistle at no extra charge. A rare freebie from Porsche!

groundhog

It is what it is . Plenty of used NA Porsche sports cars out there - there is no need to buy a 991.2 or 992 for that matter. However, there is also plenty to enjoy with turbo charged variants - I happen to enjoy both types e.g. I have a deposit down on the 718 GT4, I suspect it'll be a lot of fun. By the same token its hard to go past the current GTS (which I also own) it really does square the performance comfort circle.

Bemo

Have at it and stop dropping the mic! Porsche gave you 4 permanently mounted ones in the inner fenders!

I'll take the NA engine all day long.