992 and 991 on the street together...
10-25-2018, 02:15 PM
#16
Precisely, imagine if NO ONE complained and just accepted that they needed to " get with the times" .
For some reason we all seem to forget that these car manufactures work for us. If we don't like what they are doing then we should be motivated to stand up and do something about it. This is also commonly mislabeled as " bashing "
For some reason we all seem to forget that these car manufactures work for us. If we don't like what they are doing then we should be motivated to stand up and do something about it. This is also commonly mislabeled as " bashing "
10-25-2018, 03:23 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
"Mmmmm... The Entitlement is strong in this one..."
Or properly labeled as whining on a niche car forum that represents a minor fraction of opinion and consumer input or desires but caters to people that think they matter... Instead of voting with your wallet or actually making a real difference, like, I don't know... working in the industry and becoming a highly sought expert vice acting like one.
Do me a favor, remember this thread and get back to me in a year or two when the 992 has failed miserably and not been a success, selling out all allocations. I'll gladly take back what I say. And to be clear, I am not at all a fan of the 992, having recently voted with my wallet for a 991.2. Just don't feel the need to BASH something I don't care for. I save my Virtue Signalling for the T threads!
Happy Birthday, Comrade. Would you like me to regale you with some other examples of great populist uprisings/political successes?
The point your missing... all their missteps, the next design rollout will only be WORSE.... No one asked us what we wanted, Porsche doesn't poll large groups of current model owners before designing the next ( well, the right people anyways).
It's only through complaining and getting people to open their eyes that we even have a chance of making things better. If we stop buying them they will be forced to make changes. If we keep accepting them then they will just continue on.... Seems pretty simple to me, oh by the way, this method works just as well in politics. The only problem is getting enough people to agree with each other.......
It's only through complaining and getting people to open their eyes that we even have a chance of making things better. If we stop buying them they will be forced to make changes. If we keep accepting them then they will just continue on.... Seems pretty simple to me, oh by the way, this method works just as well in politics. The only problem is getting enough people to agree with each other.......
Precisely, imagine if NO ONE complained and just accepted that they needed to " get with the times" .
For some reason we all seem to forget that these car manufactures work for us. If we don't like what they are doing then we should be motivated to stand up and do something about it. This is also commonly mislabeled as " bashing "
For some reason we all seem to forget that these car manufactures work for us. If we don't like what they are doing then we should be motivated to stand up and do something about it. This is also commonly mislabeled as " bashing "
Do me a favor, remember this thread and get back to me in a year or two when the 992 has failed miserably and not been a success, selling out all allocations. I'll gladly take back what I say. And to be clear, I am not at all a fan of the 992, having recently voted with my wallet for a 991.2. Just don't feel the need to BASH something I don't care for. I save my Virtue Signalling for the T threads!
Happy Birthday, Comrade. Would you like me to regale you with some other examples of great populist uprisings/political successes?
10-25-2018, 03:34 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I specifically and intentionally referred to the "body/exterior."
My point isn't that the 992 is aesthetically better than the 991, it's simply that they are extremely similar, to the extent that the facelift shouldn't be enough to make someone think "the 991.2 is beautiful and the last real 911 - the 992 is an abomination," as is a common sentiment here.
The 991.2 moving to forced induction is a much larger and more groan-worthy shift than the 992 having some different plastic on the back end, IMO.
My point isn't that the 992 is aesthetically better than the 991, it's simply that they are extremely similar, to the extent that the facelift shouldn't be enough to make someone think "the 991.2 is beautiful and the last real 911 - the 992 is an abomination," as is a common sentiment here.
The 991.2 moving to forced induction is a much larger and more groan-worthy shift than the 992 having some different plastic on the back end, IMO.
10-25-2018, 06:22 PM
#22
They still cater to the enthusiasts at times but it's typically done by offering some limited edition ultra expensive, unobtanium version ( as if every enthusiast is a mega millionaire) or worse as in the case with the T they offer it very late in the product cycle. Also, these enthusiast versions can only be as good as the diluted base they were derived from so a GT3 or a T is still going to have many of the questionable mechanicals and exterior design features and don't forget that terrible i pad meets virtual reality interior.....
10-25-2018, 07:11 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
^ You have a 991, correct?
10-25-2018, 07:32 PM
#24
Race Car
Sales are up in the US so your argument doesn't hold up.
By the way, I've had 911's since 1974, have raced them and know very well what a 911 used to be and is. 911s (and their predecessors) have from day 1 been more than just sports cars. They have always been capable of daily use and long distance touring. That was more true and advantageous when English sports cars had to do "reliability runs" rather than going for rides, Italian sports cars (except of Lancia) were short lived speciality items, and Vik Elford was doing in the German "big iron".
I have a Macan as a DD to go along with my 991. It is as true a Porsche as the 911. It is also more secure and fast as any air cooled 911 of yore- and I had a couple of very good ones. I got it after I had a chance to track one. Like a 914, 924, 944, 928, Cayenne, and Panamera the Macan has the essential Porsche character. I just drove mine from Maryland to Monterey and back for Rennsport. I don't want to publish what speed it is capable of. Anyone who does not have one has no way of knowing that.
The Porsche strategy of offering an enormous range of performance across the 911 range is a service to enthusiasts- they can get what they are will to pay for. Nothing in a T is "diluted" because there is a GT3 any more than because there is a mid engined RSR.
By the way, I've had 911's since 1974, have raced them and know very well what a 911 used to be and is. 911s (and their predecessors) have from day 1 been more than just sports cars. They have always been capable of daily use and long distance touring. That was more true and advantageous when English sports cars had to do "reliability runs" rather than going for rides, Italian sports cars (except of Lancia) were short lived speciality items, and Vik Elford was doing in the German "big iron".
I have a Macan as a DD to go along with my 991. It is as true a Porsche as the 911. It is also more secure and fast as any air cooled 911 of yore- and I had a couple of very good ones. I got it after I had a chance to track one. Like a 914, 924, 944, 928, Cayenne, and Panamera the Macan has the essential Porsche character. I just drove mine from Maryland to Monterey and back for Rennsport. I don't want to publish what speed it is capable of. Anyone who does not have one has no way of knowing that.
The Porsche strategy of offering an enormous range of performance across the 911 range is a service to enthusiasts- they can get what they are will to pay for. Nothing in a T is "diluted" because there is a GT3 any more than because there is a mid engined RSR.
Last edited by chuckbdc; 10-25-2018 at 07:56 PM.
10-25-2018, 07:44 PM
#25
“I don’t like...blah, blah, blah...”. personally, I don’t care if you don’t like it!
I like it, just wish it would stop getting bigger. Other than that it’s a good step forward over the 991. No doubt the performance will be better too. If that bothers you, do yourself a favor, take your 991 and go for a drive rather than whining incessantly about the changes.
I like it, just wish it would stop getting bigger. Other than that it’s a good step forward over the 991. No doubt the performance will be better too. If that bothers you, do yourself a favor, take your 991 and go for a drive rather than whining incessantly about the changes.
10-25-2018, 08:11 PM
#26
Yes, I do
Sales are up in the US so your argument doesn't hold up.
By the way, I've had 911's since 1974, have raced them and know very well what a 911 used to be and is. 911s (and their predecessors) have from day 1 been more than just sports cars. They have always been capable of daily use and long distance touring. That was more true and advantageous when English sports cars had to do "reliability runs" rather than going for rides, Italian sports cars (except of Lancia) were short lived speciality items, and Vik Elford was doing in the German "big iron".
The Porsche strategy of offering an enormous range of performance across the 911 range is a service to enthusiasts- they can get what they are will to pay for. Nothing in a T is "diluted" because there is a GT3 any more than because there is a mid engined RSR.
By the way, I've had 911's since 1974, have raced them and know very well what a 911 used to be and is. 911s (and their predecessors) have from day 1 been more than just sports cars. They have always been capable of daily use and long distance touring. That was more true and advantageous when English sports cars had to do "reliability runs" rather than going for rides, Italian sports cars (except of Lancia) were short lived speciality items, and Vik Elford was doing in the German "big iron".
The Porsche strategy of offering an enormous range of performance across the 911 range is a service to enthusiasts- they can get what they are will to pay for. Nothing in a T is "diluted" because there is a GT3 any more than because there is a mid engined RSR.
I'm happy to you like your Macan and I mean no disrespect in saying this but it's your acceptance of a VW platform SUV as an essential Porsche that also makes your acceptance of the 992 so much easier.
I have too owned them all just the same and find the over complication, increase in size and continued dis involvement / isolation of the driving experience in these recent 911's to be reaching unacceptable levels. Regardless of what the 911 was designed to be I'm sure you wont argue how much sportier and more involving the driving experience was in the air cooled generations and even in the 996 / 997 gen cars for that matter, they may have been considered GT cars in their day but by today's standards those 911's were more raw and involving than just about any full blown "sports car" on the market today including the alfa 4C and Lotus Evora.
If you don't think the T was diluted because of it's 991 base then that must mean it's extremely tall and un sporty gearing coupled with an infuriating auto rev match feature that could not be disabled in all driving modes was exactly what the designers had in mind when they rolled out this "enthusiast" version that was all about getting back to basic driver involvement with a manual transmission?
10-25-2018, 08:29 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
This is a common argument point and yes 911 sales continue to grow year after year but it's success now days is attributed to several factors and some of them are for the wrong reasons unfortunately. Some of those wrong reasons include it appealing to a far wider audience globally ( China) with it's less focused design that appeals to those who initially bought a Cayenne or Macan and have no frame of reference for what a sports car should or even used to be. Instead, they are the ones expecting all this BS techno overload and making it larger and more comfortable and because they make up the majority now Porsche is all too happy to forget the enthusiasts that used to be the only ones buying these cars. Instead they now cater to the masses in the same way that any luxury car brand does and have diluted their products to a point of disgust for the rest of us. Don't believe me? Ask yourself why the 992 looks so similar to the other cars in the lineup inside and out......
They still cater to the enthusiasts at times but it's typically done by offering some limited edition ultra expensive, unobtanium version ( as if every enthusiast is a mega millionaire) or worse as in the case with the T they offer it very late in the product cycle. Also, these enthusiast versions can only be as good as the diluted base they were derived from so a GT3 or a T is still going to have many of the questionable mechanicals and exterior design features and don't forget that terrible i pad meets virtual reality interior.....
They still cater to the enthusiasts at times but it's typically done by offering some limited edition ultra expensive, unobtanium version ( as if every enthusiast is a mega millionaire) or worse as in the case with the T they offer it very late in the product cycle. Also, these enthusiast versions can only be as good as the diluted base they were derived from so a GT3 or a T is still going to have many of the questionable mechanicals and exterior design features and don't forget that terrible i pad meets virtual reality interior.....
You can't judge the 992 because you have neither seen nor driven it, and nobody has bought one yet to know if they are all Chinese or all enthusiasts. Or both.
10-25-2018, 09:21 PM
#28
I’ll tell you what the problem was .... It was impossible to find a base Carrera 997.2 manual transmission with extremely low miles and in perfect condition in the config I wanted. So after a year of nationwide searches and PPI’s I gave up and began another 6 month search for a base model 991.1 and finally found one with low miles in the configuration and condition I wanted.
I do love my 991 but it’s far from ideal and the 992 is shaping up to be even further in the wrong direction.
We all know what it’s going to look like and drive like and trust me there won’t be any rabbits pulled out of a hat at the unveiling so it’s pointless to pretend that anyone who is skeptical will suddenly rejoice upon their first viewing and test drive. That’s never happened as long as I’ve been in this game.
10-25-2018, 09:45 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
You do not know what it will drive like.
And shots on a computer screen using long zoom lenses and partial camo of pre-production prototypes is not the same as seeing the actual car in your favorite color/option combo in the flesh. It just isn't.
And shots on a computer screen using long zoom lenses and partial camo of pre-production prototypes is not the same as seeing the actual car in your favorite color/option combo in the flesh. It just isn't.
10-26-2018, 02:25 AM
#30
Instructor
I had a 991. I sold it after driving the Alfa 4c.
I didn't buy the Alfa for other reasons (garage too full), but driving it showed me that a car can evoke pure joy.
After that I could no longer fully enjoy my 991. Even though I used to track and autocross it heavily, I can't remember it ever bringing me as much joy as the little 4c did on a relatively short drive.
I still own a Porsche, the Macan Turbo. Wife daily commutes in it and complains that it's too soft, albeit luxirios.
I don't want this to sound like Porsche bashing - I love the company and its history. But something's gone amiss, from my perspective.
Not sure if the 992 can fix it. I have my doubts.
I didn't buy the Alfa for other reasons (garage too full), but driving it showed me that a car can evoke pure joy.
After that I could no longer fully enjoy my 991. Even though I used to track and autocross it heavily, I can't remember it ever bringing me as much joy as the little 4c did on a relatively short drive.
I still own a Porsche, the Macan Turbo. Wife daily commutes in it and complains that it's too soft, albeit luxirios.
I don't want this to sound like Porsche bashing - I love the company and its history. But something's gone amiss, from my perspective.
Not sure if the 992 can fix it. I have my doubts.