apexgao

got a 992 gt3 manual with OEM iron brakes
planning to switch to OEM PCCB

can anyone here advise where to pucharse the OEM full set of PCCB including brake calipers

thanks

cosmos

@Hinz Motorsport

Hinz Motorsport

Unless you are looking for different color calipers, I would recommend keeping your current iron calipers and upgrading to Surface Transforms, or "ST" for short. These beat out OEM PCCB discs by every metric. Last 3-5x longer, run 200 deg cooler, greater pad selection, refurbishable, nearly half the cost of new PCCB discs. The kit includes all (4) rotors and all hardware necessary to swap from iron to carbon ceramics. In short, you will receive 10mm caliper spacers for the rear with longer bolts. The fronts are a direct bolt-on as you are going from 408mm to 410mm, which is only ~1mm difference on the radius. The 992 GT3 iron and PCCB calipers accept the same pad shapes as they are essentially the same calipers.

All in costs for all (4) discs, hardware, pads, and shipping is roughly $16K. The customer's car below saved roughly 48 lbs over his stock iron setup...
992 GT3 Touring with Iron to ST Carbon Ceramic Conversion

shrimp money

But how’s the brake dust? 😁

Hinz Motorsport

No brake dust or noise when using the Pagid RSC1 compound.

cgomez

Very interesting solution! Ím disappointed I was not able to get PCCB on my new GT3. I’ve basically only had street-trck cars with ceramic brakes since my 1st GT2 back in 2008 (race cars only 1 of 8 with Ceramics, because then it gets very expensive)

Do you have data and/ or independent reviews / tests that corroborate the claims? What´s the difference in the material between these and PCCB? Do they weight the same or less than PCCB?

Hinz Motorsport

Surface Transforms have actually been around for a number of years, but the word is still "getting out" if you will. There are countless owners on Rennlist that can attest to the quality, performance, and longevity of these discs. On a 992 GT3, you are looking at roughly 14lbs for front discs and 14.5 lbs for rear discs. The discs can vary in weight by 0.5 lb or so, but this is pretty consitant with what I've seen lately. STs tend to be a little lighter than PCCB discs as well, however as there process is getting better and more refined, they are doing a better job of getting silicone absorbed into the carbon, which adds a little more weight but results in a more durable rotor. I don't have weights for new PCCB discs, but historically STs were 1-2 lb lighter per corner.

The main difference is in their construction. PCCBs use chopped carbon fiber that is pressed together. STs use continous strands that are interwoven and then pressed to comprise the disc, this results in a much better engineered product. This is also why they are able to be refurbished mutliple times. They are also more expensive to manufacture depsite costing less than replacement PCCBs. It really shows how much Porsche is making off their PCCB discs at $26k+ for a new set.

Regarding data, is there something specific you are looking for? In short however, there are literally 1000s of cars running ST rotors at this point all over the world. They can also be found in OE applications such as Singer 911, Tesla S Plaid, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin Valkyrie, and many more...

Hope this helps, reach out with any other questions!

daveo4porsche

I love this list of vehicles and know that ST has been around for years and is well regarded (understatement perhaps) - ST's are a premier non-OEM brake option and I'm unaware of any internet "hate" - and very aware of internet "love" from the customers that have taken the plunge…if you're leaning this direction my perspective/opinion is there are no regrets that I'm aware of moving the ST route based on internet feedback I've observed over the years…

however this is in an Internet forum and there is one "jab" I can not resist - of all the cars on that list - the Plaid being an adopter of ST's is not an endorsement IMHO…nor a vehicle I'd want to be associated with in regards to anything 'braking related' - if it were my brand/company I'd quietly "omit" the Tesla Plaid when associating myself with a braking product - now having said that any braking issue with the plaid (real or imagined or blown out of proportion) I will lay directly at the feet of Tesla rather than any poor automotive supply chain vendor they suckered into providing components of their monster of a vehicle…I'm 100% positive that ST brakes on a plaid are vastly better than most any alternative products - but given the hill that has to be climbed for that particular vehicle I'm not sure anyone is up to the task…

carry on - if you want to swap factor-OEM-cast-iron brakes for a ceramic alternative (OEM or otherwise) there is no reason I'm aware of for ST not to to be a top consideration - and the Porsche OEM stuff is super super expensive when it comes time for new rotors…when is it time for new rotors - the only _DATA_ I've seen is from my personal 2018 GT3 - and my results can be viewed in this thread…no judgement or conclusions but actual wear data from a tracked 991.2 GT3 w/Factory OEM rotors.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...3-991-2-a.html

cgomez

Fantastic feedback and data Dave.

I too came to the conclusion that it made sense to keep using CCBs on my Street Cars with occasional track use. My conclusion was based on the data when I raced CCBs in a Ferrari Challenge for 3 seasons. On average I could do 3-4 race weekends that included 2 x 45mins sprint races plus 4 x 30mins sessions (on those I did no more than 7-10mins / 3-4 laps all-out at a time. With that info and understanding that heat is the main culprit of wear I came to thee conclusion that most likely I would never wear the Street cars CCBs in the 3-4 years of average ownership

With more than 1 car + racing on race cars, I rarely do more than 5-7 track days, and in the street cars being SO HEAVY, the weakest link for la-time is the tires so I rarely do more than 2-3 hard laps at a time before having to do a cool down lap for the tires to regain grip or come into the pits and check my lap data. Only on a heavy (and almost 200mph fast!) Ferrari FF at Daytona I felt that the rotors were being put to their max on just 1-2 laps.

Love the consistent , no fade under any circumstances feel of CCB brakes on Trackable streetcars. Very disappointed that the factory option on non RS cars is not available due to supply as the ordering price on the option is relatively" cheap. But I do agree with you that Porsche has to be making 60%+ margin on the replacements

mrjbb7

Had Surface Transforms on my tracked 991.2 GT3RS that came without PCCB's, absolutely loved them, great recommendation.

cgomez

Thanks for the prompt reply. Great endorsement to see OEMs using the technology. More than durability I was looking for data of coefficient of friction vs. Temperature, which in my engineering / race driver mind is what makes CCB superior in pedal feel to Iron (i.e. Friction changes a lot less with temperature = a lot less "fade")

From what I read about the manufacturing process they also appear to be a lot less susceptible to impact damage (which is mostly a myth too, as in 15 years I have never broken a CCB rotor; not even in a Racecar hard crash with broken suspension / wheel)

GTTROIS

So, apologies if I missed the point somehow, but can ST rotors also be used with OEM PCCB calipers or not?
I am in the opposite situation as OP: have PCCBs on the car, and am looking for cheaper options to run on track.

cosmos

100%, I’ve done it and ST works great!

Hinz Motorsport

Dave this is great! I had no idea there was such disdain for Tesla brakes! Having never driven one myself I couldn't help but laugh after reading this so I appreciate your candor. As you've already pointed out the intent was not to claim that Tesla's brakes were amazing, I was more so expressing the credibility factor that ST is no longer a mom & pop shop, and is now trusted by many other major auto manufacturers...your feedback on the STs is also greatly appreciated. To comment, however, if the Teslas brakes do in fact suck... it's certainly not because of the rotors as the master cylinder, calipers, and pads selected will be a much larger contributor to the overall brake feel & performance on the street.

In terms of raw data, I don't personally have any. But they do claim to run 200 degrees cooler than PCCB. Carbon discs are also more stable in terms of temperature swings and I think that plays a role in the consistency feeling you refer to. I can say that again, most ST owners do track their cars, so STs are proven on track. If you had good luck with PCCB in the past, you will really like the STs. They are just better-designed discs...

Yes, they were designed to run with factory calipers. ST has fitments for virtually every Porsche GT car made or anything that came with PCCB from the factory. They have most Carrera-based fitments as well (iron or PCCB). They are designed to work with stock calipers, either iron or PCCB. The only things that change in most cases are the spacers and bolts that come with them. The discs are typically the same whether it is an Iron "Upgrade" kit or a PCCB "Replacement" Kit.

I am also putting together kits to run with PFC calipers, to allow you to run smaller wheels and reduce as much weight as possible, I assume that's where the confusion came from.

Hope this helps...

daveo4porsche

just one of 100's of articles outlining some of the issues with the Plaid's brakes…basically the car is too quick and too heavy and Tesla has never been known for "it's brakes" and they lack over-engineering in this space of their product design (their design center being street driving with more than 90% regen expected over the life of their vehicles) - their brakes have always lacked robustness but it's irrelevant on the street where they are rarely used given one-pedal driving and aggressive regen and limited street speeds.

https://insideevs.com/news/552775/te...id-brake-test/