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I am respectively disagreeing with the majority. I have over 200 track days and I am a National instructor for PCA, BMW and instruct with other clubs.
The ABS almost never kicks in for my 996 GT3. A lot has to do with the car setup and being smooth on the brake. At Watkins Glen I am going from around 150mph to 90mph in the bus stop and the ABS never kicks in.
Remember smooth is fast. Obviously, if you slam on the brakes the car will unbalanced and unpleasant things will happen. Balance and weight transfer is very important to being smooth and consistent.
I have not tracked my 992 GT3 yet so I can't comment on the braking, but I would expect similar results with the proper track setup.
I am respectively disagreeing with the majority. I have over 200 track days and I am a National instructor for PCA, BMW and instruct with other clubs.
The ABS almost never kicks in for my 996 GT3. A lot has to do with the car setup and being smooth on the brake. At Watkins Glen I am going from around 150mph to 90mph in the bus stop and the ABS never kicks in.
Remember smooth is fast. Obviously, if you slam on the brakes the car will unbalanced and unpleasant things will happen. Balance and weight transfer is very important to being smooth and consistent.
I have not tracked my 992 GT3 yet so I can't comment on the braking, but I would expect similar results with the proper track setup.
I am at 159 GPS speed into T12 at COTA and brake at about the 165 yard mark. My brake pressure is massive for a short burst with a smooth fall off. My brake pressure is never all and stead on for any amount of time. It’s always changing. I never have abs engage in me.
IMHO opinion, and I have the lap data to back it up for my personal driving style, when heavy baking in a straight line the ABS should absolute kick in periodically during that phase. Once the car is turned in and the trail braking phase starts I have found it best to revert to "threshold braking", avoiding ABS.
As others have written if you're driving on track and ABS is never engaging you're simply not getting the maximum grip available from the car/tires. It can be justify it however you want. But that's what it comes down to, it's physics.
Static friction is higher than dynamic friction. While the tire is rolling you are in static friction and when the tire is skidding you are in dynamic friction.
If you are activating ABS you are essentially locking up your brakes and releasing them very very quickly. While the tire is skidding (during ABS activation) you are transitioning to dynamic friction and then back to static friction when the cars computer releases the brakes.
The way to maximize tire grip is to apply enough force to under rotate the tire ever so slightly and avoid locking up the brakes or activating ABS.
If you are activating ABS you are aggressive on the brakes for sure but not maximizing the grip of the tires.
The above is common knowledge to most here I would assume. (who track their cars)
Last edited by 3 2 1 Fights On; 02-23-2023 at 03:33 PM.
If you are activating ABS you are essentially locking up your brakes and releasing them very very quickly.
This not an accurate portrayal of what ABS is doing. The ABS system monitors the rotating speed of all four wheels and will sense when one of the wheels is about to lock up and pull pressure from just that individual wheel, allowing the other three to continue to brake at maximum load. There’s no way a human being could do that. You would need 4 brake pedals and 4 feet. It’s a scientific fact that in this instance human beings cannot beat a computer.
There’s a reason F1 banned ABS back in 1993. It made braking way too easy. Drivers just slammed on the pedal. And those systems back then were far less sophisticated then the ones in our cars now.
Yes, a very good video and thanks for sharing, when I am teaching my kids panic braking I tell them they better be activating ABS and to try to shove the pedal through the floorboard, it is great safety technology.
I think he gets wrong that an experienced driver cannot find maximum grip (or slip) consistently. By his own words the computer has to overshoot and then back off and rinse repeat. Agree my words would have been more accurate if I inserted “impending” before the word lockup.
The maximum grip (slip) and tire “under rotating” can best be seen in an open wheel car without ABS. It is not that difficult (it takes practice) to brake hard and watch the tire continue to (under) rotate smoothly with a thin layer of smoke coating the tire.
Call me old school but if I am activating ABS I know I am not being as smooth (or fast) as I could be.
Last edited by 3 2 1 Fights On; 02-23-2023 at 04:56 PM.
...Call me old school but if I am activating ABS I know I am not being as smooth (or fast) as I could be.
I am not trying to be a jerk but what you "know" doesn't matter. What matters is what data tells us, and all the data on this subject says that even with top-level drivers, F1, Indy, etc. ABS is better than a human. All are faster utilizing ABS.
On a different note if you enjoy the feel human "threshold" braking over ABS by all means go for it. It's much like the PDK vs Manual trans experience. In the end track days are about fun.
I believe many professional drivers and experts would disagree with your above post, one example from drivingfast.net below. Other articles and posts say the same thing - threshold braking is hard to get right but if you can do it it is better than activating ABS.
All the best.
Is threshold braking still relevant in a world with ABS? In a word, yes. ABS is a reactive system – is detects the onset of a locking wheel and reduces the brake pressure automatically until the wheel has regained grip. When threshold braking, the driver attempts to maintain maximum deceleration without locking wheels, so if ABS has kicked in, then something has gone wrong. However, many modern ABS systems are react so quickly to changing conditions that it is becoming more difficult to improve on them, but the best drivers still can.
I am not trying to be a jerk but what you "know" doesn't matter. What matters is what data tells us, and all the data on this subject says that even with top-level drivers, F1, Indy, etc. ABS is better than a human. All are faster utilizing ABS.
On a different note if you enjoy the feel human "threshold" braking over ABS by all means go for it. It's much like the PDK vs Manual trans experience. In the end track days are about fun.
I believe motorsports ABS is calibrated differently than for street-legal cars.
I believe many professional drivers and experts would disagree with your above post, one example from drivingfast.net below. Other articles and posts say the same thing - threshold braking is hard to get right but if you can do it it is better than activating ABS.
All the best.
Is threshold braking still relevant in a world with ABS? In a word, yes. ABS is a reactive system – is detects the onset of a locking wheel and reduces the brake pressure automatically until the wheel has regained grip. When threshold braking, the driver attempts to maintain maximum deceleration without locking wheels, so if ABS has kicked in, then something has gone wrong. However, many modern ABS systems are react so quickly to changing conditions that it is becoming more difficult to improve on them, but the best drivers still can.
Drivngfast.net is dead wrong. ABS is not a reactive system, it is proactive. It prevents wheel lockup before it happens a vast majority of the time. A human trying to threshold brake is 100% reactive.
You ask any F1 or IndyCar driver or engineer whether their car would be faster if the rules allowed ABS and every one of them will say emphatically yes. ABS was banned decades ago in both, and most other professional auto racing series, for a reason. It was too good, too fast and too easy.
Since almost none of us are racing for a living, another point to consider is that just mashing the brake pedal and relying on ABS is a clumsy way to brake and doesn't foster developing skill in modulating the brakes. This makes a difference for those corners where you wouldn't go all the way to threshold braking. I myself enjoy developing and exercising driving skill, and am not obsessed with my lap times.
Drivngfast.net is dead wrong. ABS is not a reactive system, it is proactive. It prevents wheel lockup before it happens a vast majority of the time. A human trying to threshold brake is 100% reactive.
You ask any F1 or IndyCar driver or engineer whether their car would be faster if the rules allowed ABS and every one of them will say emphatically yes. ABS was banned decades ago in both, and most other professional auto racing series, for a reason. It was too good, too fast and too easy.
A big reason they would be faster is because of the penalty of locking up tires on the track if you don't have ABS. If an F1 car flat spots their tires, they are f'd. With ABS, the driver can be much more aggressive because the ABS prevents the lockup. So, in an non-ABS car, the driver must be cautious and must stay away from the max grip braking position. With an ABS car, even if the driver does not get into ABS, they have the confidence to push the car. And if they do, they can back off a tad without ruining their tires.
If there is a driving school that recommends fully engaging ABS and maintaining ABS in a braking zone, could you please identify them?
A big reason they would be faster is because of the penalty of locking up tires on the track if you don't have ABS. If an F1 car flat spots their tires, they are f'd. With ABS, the driver can be much more aggressive because the ABS prevents the lockup. So, in an non-ABS car, the driver must be cautious and must stay away from the max grip braking position. With an ABS car, even if the driver does not get into ABS, they have the confidence to push the car. And if they do, they can back off a tad without ruining their tires.
If there is a driving school that recommends fully engaging ABS and maintaining ABS in a braking zone, could you please identify them?
02-23-2023, 01:31 PM
