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Track driving - ABS

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Old 02-22-2023, 05:15 AM
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ahjayeson
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Default Track driving - ABS

Hi all,

Have a novice question to ask. Whilst braking on a straight, I usually brake so hard that ABS is engaged. Without consideration of weight transfer and stability, may I know if this method is the most optimum way of straightline braking? Kindly enlighten. Thanks!
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02-23-2023, 09:25 PM
MaxLTV
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Not to brag but for credibility - I race in a very competitive amateur series and can turn in laps within 0.2s/minute of my pro coach, who is an active pro racer with numerous wins. I review data after practically every day of driving and log everything up to the individual wheel and tire temps and corner heights under load, and generally know what each metric means for car setup or driving technique.

Here is a summary of ABS on track based on everything I've learned so far (applies to the 991 or newer GT3 ABS - older ones were not as good).

1. In a straight line and steady state, ABS will stop the car faster than a human, even at threshold-braking. Getting into ABS during straight-line braking will be the most efficient way to brake. It's easy to prove by data. Even if you can perfectly put the pedal pressure at just before the lockup level (most people can't - they just brake too lightly so ABS does not engage), the problem is that grip changes and the balance of grip between axles changes over time, triggering ABS & EBD. So completely avoiding ABS reaction inevitably means that you are leaving braking force on the table. But there is a catch.
2. Engaging ABS has a cost - brake pads can wear faster or even crumble if worn/overheated due to vibration, and can also leave uneven deposits - many have seen multiple overlapping "stamp imprints" of a brake pad on a rotor - that's typically what a result of ABS action with overheated pad looks like. It may cause vibrations and uneven braking in the future.
3. You do not want to engage ABS during weight transfer. For example, if you slam the brakes so quickly the front wheels start to lock up before the weight transfers to them, ABS will engage prematurely and not allow full brake pressure to build up, which will reduce deceleration and delay the weight transfer, creating a kind of a negative feedback loop.
4. Always make sure you are out of ABS sufficiently before the turn-in point. The problem with ABS is that it prevents knowing exactly how far beyond the threshold you are - you could be pushing the pedal 1% stronger than threshold or 50% - it will feel the same. And when you start turning in and gradually releasing the brake, you need to index the brake release from the threshold. Let's say you know you need to be at 60-70% of the threshold the moment you start turning in. If you are in ABS, you will have no idea whether you need to reduce the pressure by 30% or by 60% because you cannot feel how far past the threshold you are pushing into the ABS zone. So it's important to be out of ABS and feeling the brakes before starting to blend braking and turning, and not get into ABS while turning (that usually just does not work well, too long to explain why).
5. Some anomalies of track surface can make ABS suboptimal even in the straight line - typically it happens when one wheel gets very unweighted or in the air, so it does not provide braking force, and that creates a force that rotates the car (on one side two wheels brake but on the otherside only one). ABS/EBD will try to compensate for this force to avoid rotation or spin, but that may be counter to the driver's intention. In such cases I would not go into ABS if possible or turn it off. But if that happens, you will know exactly where it happens - it's noticeable.

So, unless there are special circumstances, I would drive an ABS car like this:
- Quick but gradual brake application, making sure ABS does not engage before the weight transfer completes (it is very quick, though in the 992 generation and especially in the RS)
- During straight-line braking, feel free to (gently) dip into ABS for best performance (unless brakes are starting to get greasy due to pads overheating). If anything, it's a good way to understand where the threshold is - otherwise, how will you know? In non-abs cars, racers slightly lock up wheels during warm-up to know, for example. In ABS cars, you dip into ABS.
- Before turn-in point, make sure to release brakes enough to not be activating ABS, and releases brakes during trail-braking quickly enough so that ABS does not kick in then either.
- If there is a specific place where ABS engages unusually early, try the threshold braking there and see if it's better.

Some other caveats:
- Stability control sometimes vibrates the brake pedal too, so vibration can be not ABS but stability control. You do not want that type of vibration.
- Long ABS engagement feels like brake fluid overheating - pedal becoming soft and going toward the floor. That's ABS reducing pressure rather than fluid overheating, although it feels very similar. ABS does not put more heat into pads or rotors but can have a similar negative effect on brake feel when overused.
Old 02-22-2023, 05:20 AM
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Dante
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Hi, you should stay just below the intervention of ABS (given how ABS works on a street legal car)
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Old 02-22-2023, 06:57 PM
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Art gt3rs
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Your best braking (stoping power) is just before ABS kicks in. Learn where your maximum threshold braking is, you will enjoy tracking your car much more
Old 02-22-2023, 07:52 PM
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cosmos
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I push the pedal as hard as possible on track. That’s why ABS is there. I mean, what’s the point in threshold braking?
Old 02-22-2023, 08:03 PM
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Carlo_Carrera
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^ Exactly.

Threshold braking is a myth. Use the ABS on track.

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Old 02-22-2023, 08:11 PM
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rodneyr
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On a smooth level surface ABS should not be kicking in as a general rule of thumb. I can count on one hand the number of times the ABS has kicked in with my 996 GT3 on a track.
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Old 02-23-2023, 01:47 AM
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cosmos
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Originally Posted by ahjayeson
Hi all,

Have a novice question to ask. Whilst braking on a straight, I usually brake so hard that ABS is engaged. Without consideration of weight transfer and stability, may I know if this method is the most optimum way of straightline braking? Kindly enlighten. Thanks!
You need to invest in yourself with high quality in car coaching on a race circuit. Not racing, not a timed event, but with a good, well known organization. Posting on a board with people you don’t know is not going to get you any answers you need.

Porsche driving experience is a place to start, ask your centre for more information
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Old 02-23-2023, 06:11 AM
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daveo4porsche
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Originally Posted by rodneyr
On a smooth level surface ABS should not be kicking in as a general rule of thumb. I can count on one hand the number of times the ABS has kicked in with my 996 GT3 on a track.
if this is true then you are no where near the limits of grip for your tires in those circumstances - which means you can brake harder/later and pick up time

as noted to me by Porsche factory race car driver/instructor @ Porsche driving school:
the proper amount of braking is "more".
ABS is an indication of grip-threshold for the current circumstance - you can use as an indicator of being "on the limit" - at this point in time a "bit" less braking pressure to avoid invoking ABS will offer more control and slightly better braking performance and control - ABS has to momentarily release the wheels to rotate (that's what it does) so that means you lose some deceleration during this "pulse" but retain control of the vehicle and not lock up the tires - ABS is a "clue/data/feedback" as to where the threshold is for any given track circumstance - it's data you as a driver can use to modulate/inform your inputs…no different than feedback through the steering wheel - ABS is feedback through the peddle - once you get used to it - you can anticipate ABS invocation and adjust your input to just slightly avoid it - when practicing with various instructors in the vehicle with me mastering this "just on the edge" of ABS techniques improves car control without losing significant braking performance and is more settled - but you should be at/on/near ABS otherwise there is braking performance to be gained.

but ABS is by definition threshold braking - it's a computer controlled situation in which the tires have stopped rotating and are at maximum deceleration grip (for what ever reason in what ever circumstance) and therefore is the maximum grip point…

when I go up against faster drivers than myself for any given track and lap time and vehicle (with a reference lap normally done in my actual vehicle) - and review lap data - generally speaking the driver's that are faster than me are doing two things differently than I am:
  1. they are going to power sooner and harder during corner exits
  2. they are later and harder (more pedal pressure) on the brakes (short braking distance) - carrying power longer on straight aways
    1. they are always at ABS limit (tire grip thresholds) or just shy of ABS
items #1 and #2 have the effect of elongating the straight aways and deploy the available horse power for "longer" leading to shaving 10th's from each corner-straight-corner combination…

when I then endeavor to "match" these differences my lap times come down and get closer to the faster driver

if you're not reaching ABS limits - you are not reaching grip thresholds, which means you could brake harder and later - you're leaving time on the table…it's physics.

Last edited by daveo4porsche; 02-23-2023 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 02-23-2023, 06:29 AM
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daveo4porsche
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chatGPT magic8ball says:
Hello,

Thank you for posting your question on the forum. While hard braking and engaging ABS on a straight road may seem like the best way to stop quickly, it's not necessarily the most optimal way to brake. Hard braking can cause a sudden weight transfer to the front of the vehicle, which can cause the rear wheels to lose traction and make the car unstable.

The most efficient way to brake in a straight line is to apply the brakes smoothly and gradually, allowing the weight of the car to shift forward slowly. This method will maximize the amount of grip the tires have on the road surface and allow the vehicle to come to a stop in the shortest distance possible.

If you find that you are engaging ABS frequently during normal braking, it may be a sign that you are applying the brakes too abruptly. In this case, it's important to practice smooth and gradual braking to ensure that you are using the brakes effectively and safely.

I hope this helps! Let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.
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Old 02-23-2023, 09:08 AM
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subshooter
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It's hard to avoid ABS from kicking in if you are pushing your limits and the car's. I've been trying to get on power earlier coming out of turns and braking later (over coming my own fear etc). At my local track, I am at 150 mph coming into turn 1 and standing on the brakes, and my ABS kicks in often. Not every time but usually after a few laps where I brake later and later into that turn. I don't see an issue with it. I don't think I could consistently figure out exactly where that threshold is anyway just before ABS starts to engage.
Old 02-23-2023, 09:22 AM
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Art gt3rs
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Originally Posted by cosmos
You need to invest in yourself with high quality in car coaching on a race circuit. Not racing, not a timed event, but with a good, well known organization. Posting on a board with people you don’t know is not going to get you any answers you need.

Porsche driving experience is a place to start, ask your centre for more information
I have been to the Porsche Driving School at the Barber track, they teach you about braking, weight transfer, acceleration and so on. They also explain how and what happens to the car when you do certain things. It gave me a better understanding of how to drive and understand what to expect when I brake, turn and accelerate. If you understand the physics, you will be a better driver knowledge wise, practicing the knowledge will make you a better physical driver.
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Old 02-23-2023, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by subshooter
It's hard to avoid ABS from kicking in if you are pushing your limits and the car's. I've been trying to get on power earlier coming out of turns and braking later (over coming my own fear etc). At my local track, I am at 150 mph coming into turn 1 and standing on the brakes, and my ABS kicks in often. Not every time but usually after a few laps where I brake later and later into that turn. I don't see an issue with it. I don't think I could consistently figure out exactly where that threshold is anyway just before ABS starts to engage.
same here. I get to the point where ABS just kicks in and try to hold it at that point. I feel sometimes, depending on the corner, ABS unsettles the car.
Old 02-23-2023, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Art gt3rs
I have been to the Porsche Driving School at the Barber track, they teach you about braking, weight transfer, acceleration and so on. They also explain how and what happens to the car when you do certain things. It gave me a better understanding of how to drive and understand what to expect when I brake, turn and accelerate. If you understand the physics, you will be a better driver knowledge wise, practicing the knowledge will make you a better physical driver.
I am planning to go to Barbers this summer. I definitely could use the instruction. Controlling the shifting of the weight of the car, especially when the car is at it's limit is really important and it takes a lot of practice and experience.
Old 02-23-2023, 11:20 AM
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I found that I have better control of the car when I’m just shy of engaging ABS. And when I used to routinely engage ABS, I found that it was putting too much heat into the brake system and making the pedal get soft (even with SRF). The owner’s manual for the 991.1 GT3 talks about this and advises against routinely engaging the ABS for this reason.
Old 02-23-2023, 01:28 PM
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Everyone who regularly tracks, we are all basically saying the same thing and we all understand what each other means
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